urbanSTL

This trolley is a tourist attraction first and foremost, I don't see much in it for commuters. Metro hasn't shown any interest in this project and have even declined any suggestion of operating it. Metro would continue the 97 bus and while it would be less frequent, it will be cheaper and just as fast on Delmar. The privately run trolley will likely have to be more than $1.75-2.00. You probably won't be able to use a Metro pass or transfer either.



Has anyone seen the recently built street car in downtown Little Rock? It looks nice, but isn't very practical. When I saw it there were nearly all children and senior citizens riding and the bus passed it easily.



If the Loop Trolley Company can raise the capital money and figure out a way to keep it solvent, my hat is off to them. It would certainly bring more of a regional and even national profile to the Loop. But I still don't see myself riding it save for perhaps when people visit me from out of town.

Nora wrote:This trolley is a tourist attraction first and foremost, I don't see much in it for commuters. Metro hasn't shown any interest in this project and have even declined any suggestion of operating it. Metro would continue the 97 bus and while it would be less frequent, it will be cheaper and just as fast on Delmar. The privately run trolley will likely have to be more than $1.75-2.00. You probably won't be able to use a Metro pass or transfer either.



Has anyone seen the recently built street car in downtown Little Rock? It looks nice, but isn't very practical. When I saw it there were nearly all children and senior citizens riding and the bus passed it easily.



If the Loop Trolley Company can raise the capital money and figure out a way to keep it solvent, my hat is off to them. It would certainly bring more of a regional and even national profile to the Loop. But I still don't see myself riding it save for perhaps when people visit me from out of town.

It sounds like the San Francisco Cable car/trolleys. Those are for tourists to ride up and down the hills. Locals there say its expensive to ride and not too convienent and isn't able to go to other places around town that their ETB Buses and diesel buses already can go.



I would like to see this loop trolley get build as it would add some vibe to the loop.

^^^You keep picturing Delmar as it is now. Think about what it could look like...



Re: Commuters: If I lived in the area of Delmar and Westgate, or Delmar and Debaliviere, it would be pretty handy to hop on the trolley to the nearest MetroLink station. Maybe there aren't a whole lot of commuters there now, but it would make those areas a whole lot more viable for high-density apartments or condos for those that work downtown or Clayton.



In any case, I think it could be so much more than a tourist attraction. You forget about all of the students in the area that don't have cars and would no doubt use it quite a bit to go to and from the Loop and Metro. And, as I said, once the trolley is in place, I am quite sure Delmar and Debaliviere will fill in pretty fast with additional high-density residential and more convenience-type retail options, providing many more riders. Once the Delmar barrier is broken (and I think we are damn close), the area will be much more viable as a North Campus for WashU. Once that happens that whole area will explode. Synergies and whatnot...



Has WashU pledged any money for this? If not, why not?

Nora wrote:This trolley is a tourist attraction first and foremost, I don't see much in it for commuters. Metro hasn't shown any interest in this project and have even declined any suggestion of operating it. Metro would continue the 97 bus and while it would be less frequent, it will be cheaper and just as fast on Delmar. The privately run trolley will likely have to be more than $1.75-2.00. You probably won't be able to use a Metro pass or transfer either.

Metro won't operate it? That sucks for this trolley. For this streetcar line to be a viable solution for transit, it needs to be consistent with the other transit in the region (with fares, transfers, passes, signage, etc.). I don't think it will attract much development if it can only be used as a tourist attraction. San Francisco's F-Market line is maintained by the nonprofit Market Street Railway and operated by SFMTA (MUNI). The fares/transfers/passes/signage are the same as the rest of the SFMTA system (except the cable cars).

Metro doesn't exactly have the financial cushion right now to absorb a tourist-trolley. Dooley has said no to giving what perhaps will be the largest turnout of voters in years a chance to save Metro from going under. And meanwhile, Slay would rather have City voters give even more money in higher sales taxes to a state-controlled department already eating a third of its coffers.

^Dunno JM. Improving accessibililty to jobs and catalyzing economic development via transit would seem to offer a more forward-looking or pro-active means for revitalizing the urban core than always reactively throwing more police at crime.

Metro won't operate it? That sucks for this trolley. For this streetcar line to be a viable solution for transit, it needs to be consistent with the other transit in the region (with fares, transfers, passes, signage, etc.). I don't think it will attract much development if it can only be used as a tourist attraction. San Francisco's F-Market line is maintained by the nonprofit Market Street Railway and operated by SFMTA (MUNI). The fares/transfers/passes/signage are the same as the rest of the SFMTA system (except the cable cars).

This project shows the lack of any consistent public transportation policy. The Delmar Trolley project is using federal funds to study and design. They will likely seek federal funds to construct.



The region has studied and identified extensions along like Daniele Boone, Metro South, and is pushing hard on North-South. None of these have funding and E/W has not identified a priority for construction to present to the public for a referendum. (To my knowledge.)



The Delmar Trolley will absolutely not make money in my opinion. It will have to comply with FTA regulations for ADA, reduced fare, complementary paratransit, drug and alcohol, public hearings, rail safety and safety oversight, etc. All of these will increase the operating cost beyond the simplistic budget currently described.



By route it will overlap with the 97 Delmar and the 90 Hampton. If you attract riders to the new Trolley and reduce ridership on the bus lines, are you not increasing the net deficit for the system? If you offer lower fares on the bus network which overlaps, why would anyone other than a tourist ride this line if its more costly and slower?



As envisioned by Edwards, the line is pretty much a tourist route. If so, why not expand it into Forest Park serving essentially what the Forest Park Shuttle does. You could then eliminate the Forest Park shuttle and divert some of that money to the Trolley. (Not enough to operate it however.)



As a transportion element, I see so many problems with the Trolley as envisioned since its pretty much an overlay of very limited parts of the transit system, but doesn't permit any elimination or replacement of any of the system.



It you pushed it further east and west on Delmar so it replaced the 97, it might make some sense to me. You would have a trolley running through the loop, past Grand Center, and down Washington Avenue to downtown.



The 97 Delmar has approximately 4500 daily boardings. With the positive rail bias , this might push ridership up quite a bit. On the West End it might connect with the dreamed of Westport Metrolink. Of course this would increase costs geometrically and compete with all of the other dreamed of extensions.



On the practical side, where do you fix the cars? Who will do the rail system repairs (Catenary, rail, signals)? Who will do body work for the future collisions? Who will train their operators? Who will insure compliance with ADA? Will the system start at 4:00 am in the morning to serve workers now using the 97 Delmar? Will it operate seven days a week? What do you do when one of the cars is involved in an accident to maintain frequency? Will you have crossovers, or does the system just shut down?



If its just envisioned as a tourist stimulus for the loop, should we be using limited Federal Rail funds to build this rather than an element of the system that could play a more important transportation and economic development function?

From the Downtown West thread:

Matt Drops The H wrote:Streetcar tracks communicate a permanent investment in transit more so than buses. Plus, streetcars have a nostalgia to them that tourists eat up. Given the rails, TOD opportunities are better for streetcars as well.

Exactly. Transportation development should always be thought of as an investment - a way of levering additional development. Additional development brings in more residents, and more businesses, thus growing demand for mass transit. Additional riders mean more investment, more investment means additional riders, until the system eventually reaches capacity. Busses simply do not have that effect. Fixed rail does. Instead local leaders only seem to think about maximizing current riders served per dollar spent. That is incredibly shortsighted.



It is as if a land developer out in distant exurbia somewhere approached community leaders with a plan to develop 4000 new homes, and all he needs is for the community to pay for a mile of new access road, yet local leaders say no because, well, "Nobody lives there". Duh.



Imagine you are the owner of retail space on Delmar or some similar street, and you are talking to a potential tenant. Which do you think that tenant would find more interesting; the fact that the XX bus line goes down the street in front of your store (which could change at any time), or the fact that someone is spending a couple million dollars to put in the tracks, signals, and power lines for a trolley line which will pass right in front of your store?



I think we all need to get over the idea of the streetcar as nostalgic, and a tourist attraction, however. If you have to rely on tourists for the system to work, then it will ultimately fail. That is a potential benefit, of course, but should only be a secondary objective of system design. Purely anecdotal of course, but many smaller European cities have streetcar systems like what is proposed. The systems in Zurich and Vienna come to mind. They are heavily used by locals, yet provide a very convenient and inexpensive way for visitors to explore the city as well.

Times 15 or 20, per mile.

are streetcars and trolleys the same? If not, what's the difference?

migueltejada wrote:I still don't understand why we don't reach a logical compromise and have fixed overhead guideline buses like they have in San Francisco. It offers the same guarantee of permanency that rails do, at a fraction of the cost, while allowing for a significantly more flexible transit system, in case of accidents or malfunctions. Plus, as overhead electric, it will be much cleaner (in the immediate vicinity) over diesel or gas belching buses. You could put in overhead wires from Delmar to Dorsett for the same price as a few miles of fixed rails. Why hasn't anyone else thought of this?



Or is my idea too logical?

Busses are uncomfortable because of the abrupt starts and stops and unpredictable accelerations in every direction. Trains and trolleys are smooth. You can walk around on a rail car. Nobody likes bouncing around on a bus. So in some ways it is the worst of both worlds, although more responsible from an energy and pollution standpoint.

For your edification, a practical discussion of the pros and cons of tram systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram#Pros_ ... am_systems



Can't one already get downtown from the Loop via the Metro and bus already? Talk about the stigma of a bus all you want, the Metro has less. Romance of anything, to include a streetcar, can tend to distract from rationality. In sum, I can think of far better uses for my tax money than a duplicitous mode of travel.

^Downtown needs a transportation 'loop' as it were, that doesn't involve busses. For that matter the CWE/Grand Center area would also benefit tremendously from a transit loop. As has been discussed to death on these forums, MetroLink does not adequately serve the Central West End, Grand Center, West Washington Avenue, and all areas in between. Since I don't see MetroLink providing any of this in the next couple of decades, a trolley/streetcar system that runs all the way down Delmar/Enright/Grand/MLK from the Loop, to say, the Dome-Convention Center area, would provide that, for a fraction of the cost.



For better or worse, St. Louis has developed in such a way that most of the major attractions and the highest density neighborhoods are along this central corridor stretching from downtown all the way west to Clayton. I do not think it would be at all "duplicitous" or inefficient to have two modes of mass transit along this central corridor. This 'loop' could provide the core and transfer points for all future north-south extensions, whether those be light rail, or streetcars.



Just think of how much development could be attracted to the northern edge of the central corridor. I think such a project would finally break the psychological barrier that is Delmar, for good, and could open up vast areas of the near north side for revitalization/redevelopment.



If Metro wins increased funding over the next year, they must get 100% behind this, as should all local 'leaders'.

^Here's a a good summary of cost comparisons.

southslider wrote:^Here's a a good summary of cost comparisons.

Thanks, that was interesting. I am not sure how reliable any average cost per mile quote really is though, without seeing a breakdown on infrastructure costs. Obviously, if you have to rebuild a bridge or build some other new infrastructure not directly related to the streetcar line itself, and that cost is allocated across the length of the system, it skews the numbers so much so that they are meaningless. I would think there aren't a whole lot of new infrastructure costs for the proposed Delmar line. Therefore, I think it would be much less expensive than most of those examples, probably more in the range of the Little Rock line.

But why do you think most cities are opting for modern streetcars over vintage trolleys? It's to provide functional transportation, not a tourist ride.



Even cities with vintage are switching the bulk of their service to a more modern fleet. Charlotte will have its trolleys only provide lunch/weekend trips within a section of the newly opened LRT corridor, and a future streetcar corridor here is to have all modern vehicles. Memphis also aspires to switch to more modern vehicles on a hybrid of existing streetcar routes and new corridors.