urbanSTL

migueltejada wrote:^ But what are we talking about? A trolley car? For what purpose? Really, can anyone tell me what the purpose of this is?



If it is for tourists - what's the point?

Tourists in the summer to promote the Delmar Loop and continued development of the loop area right off the Forest Park / Wash U. area. What's wrong with a tourist attraction? It gets people up and down the loop only -- like the historic street cars along Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco. They aren't commuter transportation. They are tourist transportation up and down the loop, and an attraction in themselves.

migueltejada wrote:Furthermore, the Loop is not that long. You can walk end to end in 20 minutes, 15 if you're walking briskly and you catch the lights. Also, there's a metro stop on Delmar. If I'm a tourist - why would I get off at Forest Park when the Delmar stop is a half - mile closer to where I want to be? True, the FP stop is in a nicer part of town, but any tourist who would ride the metrolink wouldn't know that.

I think people who are too lazy to take the metro to the Loop in the first place (preferring to drive) would be the same folks who would see a 20 minute walk as prohibitive.

Gary Kreie wrote:What's wrong with a tourist attraction?

Using federal money to fund a tourist attraction. When the Feds are fighting DC on extending their Metro to Tyson's Corner and Dulles, Seattle on their Link extension to University of Washington, and even the Twin Cities on building a light rail line between them via a university campus, it doesn't look good. These are projects with tens of thousands of riders a day. The last project to be funded is something catering to a handful of people with little to no improvements in travel.

^ Would not the streetcar fall under the Small Starts program, not the New Starts program in which your examples are competing. IOW, wouldn't the streetcar project compete only with other streetcars and small BRT projects and not the larger light rail and heavy metro projects?



And it's amazing how many tourist attractions the feds fund already, museums in particular.

I think if we are going to get a streetcar system going, we should make a a comprehensive plan for transportation in the city. Try to get funding for the North-South line first (since the county is not going to help the city get this) and then show feds a plan to a have street cars on major commercial corridors attaching the 2 light rail lines that would be in the city. We really need leaders with a vision for St. Louis transportation. I like the idea of TDD to help funding and if we can get around 50% the feds will definitely match. The feds helped us get the first line started, lets hope a Dem gets elected this fall.

Doug wrote:Can St. Louis City add a local gasoline tax onto the price in order to fund transit?

I don't know Doug, I like the idea of that and some TDD going on. We could get some many cool things in this town if politicians or the people in general came up with ideas. There is money and investment to be made in this city, we just need more people to see the potential and a little bit more help from the state and county.

Doug wrote:Can St. Louis City add a local gasoline tax onto the price in order to fund transit?

Don't you think that would just make a bunch of people skip the STL gas station on the way home, when they can go 3 more miles and pay 15 cents less per gallon? Plus, where would the Illinoisans get gas?

Mill204 wrote:^ Would not the streetcar fall under the Small Starts program, not the New Starts program in which your examples are competing.

Possibly, depending on the total project cost nailed down in the recently approved engineering study. My point in my examples of competing projects, albeit New Starts, is that Washington has a strong anti-rail bias right now. And it's for BRT, not streetcars, for which Small Starts is being sold to cities.



But let's say the Feds would decide to expand funding for streetcars via Small Starts, New Starts or even a new funding program. Even then, it's fairly obvious that other corridors even within St. Louis, let alone other cities across the US, would still compete better on all measures, be they cost-effectiveness, travel-time savings, development opportunities or any other measure. It's just doesn't make fiscal sense to invest limited public funds in a project lacking in public benefits.



In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a transit-dependent advocate, like ACORN, end up suing the entity that puts a dime into such a capital-intensive project that actually makes travel times for the vast majority of commuters or folks using transit to reach basic services worse than today's system of MetroLink and bus connections. Does Joe Edwards really expect those riding buses now on Delmar and DeBaliviere to be inconvenienced so that some cool old trolley cars can leisurely roll down these streets?

Believe me, I'm a believer in streetcars. I just prefer modern vehicles for their accessibility and greater capacity, as well as lines that actually go somewhere other than two existing stations already a very short ride apart.



Here in the New South, we have a light-rail line built and under design for extension basically running north-south, plus plans for a modern streetcar line basically running east-west. Since MetroLink is more east-west, just imagine if a north-south streetcar were planned, say along Grand, the busiest bus route by a wide margin. Not surprisingly, Charlotte's modern streetcar is planned for the two radial routes (we have a strong CBD supportive of a classic hub-and-spokes system) that have the strongest bus ridership and similar frequency to the new light-rail line.



Even if the Feds change their anti-rail bias (one might hope with a change in administration), it will still be a national competiton. St. Louis is already disadvantaged by its constrained local funding and lack of growth. Given such a handicap going into the game, the last thing St. Louis needs to then do is submit a project that is extremely weak by numerous measures of effectiveness.

Doug wrote:Can St. Louis City add a local gasoline tax onto the price in order to fund transit?

Cities/Counties in Missouri don't have the authority to levy a fuel tax. Illinois allows this.

Any updates? I'm interested now that I go to the Loop so often.

JuiceInDogtown wrote:Any updates? I'm interested now that I go to the Loop so often.

The preliminary engineering should begin in a few weeks. This will be managed by the East-West Gateway Council of Governments. CH2MHill is the lead consulting team. Project manager is Sam Seskin of Portland, OR. Donna Day, formerly of EWGCG is the number two person. Tim Page of the local CH2MHill local office and Skinker-DeBaliviere Resident will be a key team member. The study should take 18 months and the outcome will be 30 to 50 percent engineering and a good idea of what it will costs and hopefully, a sound strategy on how to raise the money. Meanwhile, a vote on a TDM along the corridor will happen this fall. If it would pass, it could help fund the operation.

Maybe we should try some of these public/private partnerships with metrolink funding. All businesses, residents and developments along the line pay a tax for the service.



Trolley Song: A new source of funds pushes forward the plan for streetcars on Delmar Boulevard

By Kathleen McLaughlin

Published on August 13, 2008



Some ten years have passed — three years longer than it took to build the Transcontinental Railroad — since Joe Edwards first envisioned a trolley line that would connect University City to Forest Park. But the Delmar Loop's most prolific entrepreneur has not let a single detail of the ambitious plan slip from his mind's eye.



http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2008-08- ... -far-away/

migueltejada wrote:No one will take Delmar if they can avoid it, given that there'll be a FREAKING TROLLEY TAKING UP AN ENTIRE LANE OF TRAFFIC AND CONSTANTLY STOPPING. Unless they remove on street parking (highly unlikely), you'll be able to walk the Loop (which is actually a strip) faster than you can drive down it.

Yogi? Is that you?

Great! The Loop has way too much through traffic as it is. I'd even avocate for pedestrian only between Kingsland and Eastgate.

quincunx wrote:Great! The Loop has way too much through traffic as it is. I'd even avocate for pedestrian only between Kingsland and Eastgate.

The 14th Street Mall sound familiar to you? No?

Nope, I wasn't around for its decline. The decline of the 14th Street Mall probably had more to do with the general decline of the North side than that two blocks were closed to car traffic. I'd just rather have more east-west through traffic go to FPP, Olive, or Vernon than clogging up the Loop. Then again I'm not a business owner in the Loop. Maybe that's what they want.

I'm tired of dodging aggressive drivers and not being able to have a conversation over the traffic noise. Limiting a few blocks to the trolley, buses, and taxis would be a plus in my opinion.

Pedestrian malls are pretty much a failure anywhere you go. I've only seen one that worked and that was in Burlington, VT.

Beale Street seems to work.