Delmar Loop Trolley

Alex Ihnen · PostMar 24, 2009#2512009-03-24T18:30+00:00

Tom Shrout wrote:Hopefully, the region will come up with a funding solution for Metro. Not doing so in my mind jeopardizes any transit improvements.

I would argue that to do so we need to focus on Metro - especially in an area that is so well serviced already. Why aren't Joe Edwards and others promoting how connected The Loop is to Metrolink? Why aren't they using their dollars and energy on reconfiguring the Delmar stop and the retail opportunities on Delmar and DeBaliviere? Instead the message seems to be: we need millions of dollars and streetcar to connect people to The Loop. And, as has been noted, much of their new website falls short of honest promotion.

goat314 · PostMar 24, 2009#2522009-03-24T18:37+00:00

So Tom what would a downtown trolley look like? Are we talking about a loop? How would it fit in to future metrolink expansions downtown? How large? Do you know?

urbanpioneer · PostMar 24, 2009#2532009-03-24T19:45+00:00

I think it's time for the two Delmar Trolley threads to be merged. Once posts in one thread are linking to the other, then the discussion is the same on either. Just saying...

wabash · PostMar 24, 2009#2542009-03-24T20:47+00:00

It's great to hear that streetcars could be returning to St. Louis. It sounds like most here agree

that Grand deserves a street car and that this project would be strengthened by extending to Grand via Delmar or Lindell. Unfortunately...

-This is a vanity project by someone creating an entertainment district, not a viable or useful transit option.

-This project is geared primarily toward tourists and local visitors, not residents.

-Autonomous systems that are nice to look at, but isolated in super-local districts will do little to strengthen St. Louis as a whole.

-This is not part of a larger vision. There has been no mention by The Loop Trolley (the name says it all) organization of expansion after construction.

-This project has contrived aesthetic aspirations intended to produce postcard fodder for tourists.

tom shrout · PostMar 24, 2009#2552009-03-24T22:54+00:00

goat314 wrote:So Tom what would a downtown trolley look like? Are we talking about a loop? How would it fit in to future metrolink expansions downtown? How large? Do you know?

There are no definitive plans, only a desire to get EWGCG to do a feasibility study. Ideas have ranged from connecting the casinos to the baseball stadium, to building an east-west couplet on Olive and Locust to Grand Center. HNTB which did the Northside/Southside MetroLink study has done a tiny bit of work on this pro bono.

blzhrpmd2 · PostMar 24, 2009#2562009-03-24T23:16+00:00

A line down Broadway from Lumiere to AB would be great and I know has been mentioned before; hitting the CBD, Courthouse, Busch, then flanking Soulard. A link from Metro (Busch) to Soulard seems like a no brainer (that southbound metro extensions plans seem to exclude).

I also think the Loop Trolley should extend to CWE using Lindell or Delmar.

jakektu · PostMar 25, 2009#2572009-03-25T15:49+00:00

^ Go futher on South Broadway. Maybe Pinnacle wants to connect Lumiere Place to the Rver City Casino!

dredger · PostMar 25, 2009#2582009-03-25T20:45+00:00

I know my comments will getting off topic, would it be realistic to find a way to fund some dedicated north/south routes and a downtown loop bus route with Metrolink connections on the aforementioned routes (Grand, Euclid, Broadway Casino Run) with TDD districts. Secure new green buses with grants and use a TDD to pay Metro for ops. Don't charge a bus fee and see if their would be legitimate demand for dedciated street carlines on some of these routes coming off Metrolink. Heck, paint the buses green so people know that their are the free ones.

I know Joe is going for the tourist angle as well as a direct connection of the neighborhood to Metrolink. However, some creative bus routes and funding sources can lay the ground work while some decent planning and engineering is put in place. We simply don't have someone like Joe Edwards in every neighborhood. I won't mention the name of the guy at SLU

Alex Ihnen · PostMar 25, 2009#2592009-03-25T20:54+00:00

I think my preference would be for streetcars, but I'm intrigued by this project: http://euclidtransit.org/home.asp

I'm in Cleveland regularly and am looking forward to checking it out. The articulated buses run in dedicated lanes and have priority timing at all light signals . . .

debaliviere · PostMar 26, 2009#2602009-03-26T14:51+00:00

^

I wonder if something like that would still suffer from the stigma attached to buses. I would think that we'd need something that looks less like a bus here.

Alex Ihnen · PostMar 26, 2009#2612009-03-26T15:13+00:00

DeBaliviere wrote:^

I wonder if something like that would still suffer from the stigma attached to buses.

Yes it would.

[edit] I'll only add that there's a stigma attached to Metrolink as well, so no surprise here. I think that if there are regular, nice covered stops and the buses have their own right-of-way with priority stoplight timing the stigma would fall somewhere between buses and Metrolink. [/edit]

ben1040 · PostMar 27, 2009#2622009-03-27T05:33+00:00

I'm working in Vancouver again this week and noticed BC TransLink runs the all-electric versions of those articulated New Flyers. Whisper quiet and they run them at tight intervals.

I would love to see the #70 bus replaced by something like that someday.

DogtownBnR · PostApr 16, 2009#2632009-04-16T13:00+00:00

Joe Edwards spoke this morning on KTRS and said that the Trolley project may only be 2 years away from becoming reality. His group is firming up their plan to take to Congress. He said he is very optimistic. If anyone can get it done, its Joe Edwards. He put emphasis on the doubters that thought the Pageant, Pin-up Bowl and other pet projects would fail. He feels the Moonrise will be another one of the Loop's success stories. How can you bet against Mr. Edwards....Go JOE!!!

Alex Ihnen · PostApr 16, 2009#2642009-04-16T14:12+00:00

I hope this project does not receive transportation funds. If they want to call it small business development or a tourist attraction fine.

ben1040 · PostApr 16, 2009#2652009-04-16T15:34+00:00

One thing dawned on me Saturday while shopping at Good Works. On a weekend when the area is really in full swing, you can usually walk from Kingsland to Skinker and do so just as quickly as you would if you drove. And if you need to get to DeBaliviere we have this lovely modern light rail system that will take you there from just east of Skinker.

Add in time spent waiting for a trolley to show up, and a few bucks' fare, and this seems like not only a waste of the taxpayer's money but also a waste for every customer who chooses to ride it.

DogtownBnR · PostApr 16, 2009#2662009-04-16T15:40+00:00

Even if it is not the ideal location for a trolley, would you rather the federal money go towards something in this area or east Bumf*** middle of nowhere town? I think this project, while not the ideal place for a trolley, will open the eyes of people in this area and make them realize that street level transportation is viable and useful. Maybe it will lead to trolleys in other more useful parts of town (Downtown to Soulard) or Metrolink using street level trains in the future. Better a trolley to nowhere than a bridge to nowhere somewhere else.

stlgasm · PostApr 16, 2009#2672009-04-16T15:54+00:00

Let us not forget how many naysayers there were before MetroLink opened. "It'll never work here" - "People won't give up their cars" blah blah blah. Well, even by the most conservative measures, MetroLink has proven to be successful system (aside from budgetary problems). So much so, in fact, that it serves as an example for other cities (trust me, other cities are JEALOUS of our rail system-- Cincinnati, KC, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and Detroit would KILL to have a system like ours).

I firmly believe that re-introducing streetcar service to The Loop will be a boon for the area. After all, the district was built for streetcars. The city is like an organism-- let's pump some blood back into its veins!!!

DogtownBnR · PostApr 16, 2009#2682009-04-16T16:11+00:00

The city is like an organism-- let's pump some blood back into its veins!!!

Couldn't agree more!!! =D>

moorlander · PostApr 16, 2009#2692009-04-16T16:14+00:00

When this becomes a suceess it will be a spring board for more urban street car lines. The problem is, everyone will say "they did this with private money, blah blah blah"

Alex Ihnen · PostApr 16, 2009#2702009-04-16T16:15+00:00

ben1040 wrote:One thing dawned on me Saturday while shopping at Good Works. On a weekend when the area is really in full swing, you can usually walk from Kingsland to Skinker and do so just as quickly as you would if you drove. And if you need to get to DeBaliviere we have this lovely modern light rail system that will take you there from just east of Skinker.

Add in time spent waiting for a trolley to show up, and a few bucks' fare, and this seems like not only a waste of the taxpayer's money but also a waste for every customer who chooses to ride it.

Exactly. This is not going to be a functional system. Tens of millions of dollars are apparently going to be spent for a couple nice postcard photos and the adoring amusement of a few tourists. Who other than tourists are going to pay and extra couple dollars to ride this thing when (if they're connected to WU) they may have a free Metro pass or have purchased their own?

I get the attitude that we might as well spend wastefully here instead of letting another city or state do it, but we need to be talking about how best to use limited infrastructure dollars and build a sustainable mass transit system in St. Louis. Again, if this trolley were to stand on its own solely as a business venture that would be great, but it's been sold as something it is not.

moorlander · PostApr 16, 2009#2712009-04-16T16:20+00:00

I suppose it will make it easier to get from east loop to the west loop and back.

Alex Ihnen · PostApr 16, 2009#2722009-04-16T16:26+00:00

^ That's just it - it won't.

From the Pageant to Blockbuster is 1/2 mile. What does that take to walk? Maybe 8 minutes? Who's going to pay $2 or more, wait for a trolley to show up and sit in traffic as it slowly makes its way down Delmar?

debaliviere · PostApr 16, 2009#2732009-04-16T16:28+00:00

Moorlander wrote:When this becomes a suceess it will be a spring board for more urban street car lines. The problem is, everyone will say "they did this with private money, blah blah blah"

That's kind of how I feel - this line may not be the ideal route or the most stimulative plan, but it would make a good starting point. Get people comfortable with the idea of taking the streetcar line and then expand it east to Euclid, spurring development along the line. Maybe then find a way to get it to Grand Center.

Alex Ihnen · PostApr 16, 2009#2742009-04-16T16:33+00:00

^ Don't mean to beat a dead horse with my opinion - but why would it make sense to have a separate system than Metro connect the Loop to Grand Center even it were possible? It seems natural to want to connect the CWE with the Loop, but then you have a separate transit authority competing with Metro. Why does this make sense?

[edit] If the trolley were ever to connect the Loop and the CWE it could only be via Delmar. Do we think the homeowners on Lindell want a trolley in front of their house? There is a HUGE amount of development potential on Delmar - it would only make sense.

wabash · PostApr 16, 2009#2752009-04-16T16:36+00:00

...then expand it east to Euclid, spurring development along the line. Maybe then find a way to get it to Grand Center.

I agree couldn't agree more. Loop, CWE, and Midtown should be connected.

One issue with initial expansion is that there is little opportunity for development between the History Museum and Euclid. It's all Forest Park on one side and 1904 palaces on the other. It would make for a beautiful ride, but unfortunately not much development potential.

Delmar Loop Trolley

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