urbanSTL

I'm still mostly at a loss for words, but I'm also still thinking things through since the victim was someone I knew, albeit not that well.



I hate how the conversation on so many online discussions has already turned to the usual brand of insults directed at the City of St. Louis and anyone that dares to live within its borders. However, I cannot shake this feeling, however irrational it may be: Crime is everywhere, and as rare as this type of random crime may be, it's still much more likely in St. Louis than it would be in a suburb or a smaller community like Columbia or Peoria, even though they have their issues as well. Here, the social problems that led to this abject depravity are that much more serious, the fissures in the broken justice system are that much worse, and it seems like there's always a segment of the population making excuses for the criminals and their behavior. I don't think we should live in fear, and I get so sick of people characterizing the city as a dangerous place to live, but I do think we need to accept that violence is a serious problem here, and I wish we could do more as a community (not city vs. suburbs, us vs. them) to find meaningful solutions.



I don't know what to think about carrying handguns as a means of self-defense, and I don't want this discussion to turn into a debate. There are some days when I'd love to wake up and see a headline that strict gun control measures have been enacted nationwide. There are others, like yesterday, when I think you need a gun to make the criminal think twice about committing a crime in the first place. I will say, FWIW, that I think Missouri has it right in the absence of large-scale reform. I've never seen conclusive studies that show either a significant decrease or an increase in crime with concealed-carry laws, but if it makes responsible people feel safer to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with state law, I really don't have a problem with it at all.



Sadly, I think there's little if any hope of doing much to stop random violent acts like this one. I'm no more a fan of Michael Moore than Rush Limbaugh, but I think Bowling for Columbine showed there are no simple answers to the question of why America is a much more violent society than other nations.



Forgive me if this diatribe is a bit irrational here or there, as I'm not quite ready to be talked down yet.

JuiceInDogtown wrote:^ ARMING YOURSELF IS FOR STUPID REDNECK ANIMALS!!!! Prepare yourself for that response. I personally can't wait to get my conceal carry permit.





The Fox 2 anchor called LaSalle Park "a nice little neighborhood south of Purina." That surprised me.

Where do you get the idea that the majority on this forum is anti-gun rights? Seems to me the thread on conceal carry had none of the remark you made above in all caps. I know you are a conservative, but you need to get over this idea that this forum is somehow ultra-liberal and that you are being persecuted for your positions.



I'm all for responsible citizens being able to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. Anyone who has the interest and wants to put in the time and training should absolutely get their conceal carry permit. But don't think it's like the movies. Consider that in this case an off duty police officer was unable to prevent this crime. Do any of you think you could do any better under the circumstances?

southsidepride wrote:Where do you get the idea that the majority on this forum is anti-gun rights? Seems to me the thread on conceal carry had none of the remark you made above in all caps. I know you are a conservative, but you need to get over this idea that this forum is somehow ultra-liberal and that you are being persecuted for your positions.

I could be wrong, but I think Juice is referring to online discussions about this topic as a whole and not this forum per se.



These days the rhetoric from both "sides" on nearly every major issue is extremely toxic. It's nearly impossible to have a civil discussion about any major issue on most forums, although I like to think this forum is a pleasant exception as a place where we can respect each others' opinions even when they don't line up with our views.

I already own a gun and plan on getting a conceal/carry license. I will not carry it all of the time, but when I am going to places I feel it is necessary, I will. I am not a hunter, redneck or hooshier. I have a graduate degree and consider myself a good citizen. I was talked into it by friends in law enforcement. I don't really care what anyone thinks. I have that right and feel that the time is now, for getting a conceal/carry license. By no means do I want this thread to turn into a conversation on this. Just stating my position.

ThreeOneFour wrote:there are no simple answers to the question of why America is a much more violent society than other nations.

Truth, and as such there is no one solution to the problem of violence.



But keep in mind that we DO know and have observed how violent neighborhoods become stabilized and safer. In my opinion, this is our greatest tool against violence. If neighborhoods on both sides of delmar continue to be stabilized and cared for, I think we're well on our way to a safer city and society.

^Fix the schools first...strengthen family and assist single parents, make parents accountable, tighten and toughen laws to deter crime. That is a start...

I wrote this earlier this year after the Maggie O'Briens tragedy--still fits.



"These crime threads essentially serve for people to vent their frustrations. Read back and notice the pattern. Crime happens, details are solidified, anger is expressed, frustrations devolve into personal back and forth that isn't interesting for anybody but the antagonists. Pissing continues for a page or so and eventually ends in somebody getting exhausted and quitting. Usually there are some racially motivated comments mixed in (some are legitimate, others gratuitous, almost all are taken personally), and frequently somebody takes a cue to threadjack along the lines of either gun control or the necessity of having an armed citizenry. Oh yeah, sometimes conservatards and libpussies opportunistically engage in talking-point cockslapping about the necessity of either "personal responsibility" or public assistance for education and job training. Eventually, Doug shows up and blames crime on the clearance of Mill Creek, Jefferson Davis, Paul McKee, and urban renewal. Finally, somebody makes a dispassionate observation about the tiresome absurdity of it all, includes some funny terms like "cockslapping" in his post, and we all have a chuckle. By that time, another crime will likely have occurred so we can all start rolling the rock back up the hill."



Anyhoo, this crime is heinous and terrifying. Unfortunately, it is playing out along stereotypical lines. Honestly, I think that I could pull the trigger on these guys and then go eat some pancakes...Where is Doug?

ThreeOneFour wrote:

southsidepride wrote:Where do you get the idea that the majority on this forum is anti-gun rights? Seems to me the thread on conceal carry had none of the remark you made above in all caps. I know you are a conservative, but you need to get over this idea that this forum is somehow ultra-liberal and that you are being persecuted for your positions.

I could be wrong, but I think Juice is referring to online discussions about this topic as a whole and not this forum per se.

Bingo

TGE-ATW wrote:Honestly, I think that I could pull the trigger on these guys and then go eat some pancakes.

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

^^How do you change the emboldened mentality of the average

'street thug' if that is all they know and they don't want to hear anything different. We need more jobs for these people, better education and more intervention. That would take a monumental effort nationally, just to put a dent in this problem. I cannot comprehend where the lack of respect for life stems from, but that is my biggest concern. These thugs will shoot you in the head for a dollar or a car to drive a few blocks. I don't know how this was allowed to get so bad.



I think the federal government needs to have more involvement in controlling gang activity. I don't know how or with what money, but something has to be done. I am ready to call in the National Guard to clean up the 'hoods'.



It is hard when so many good people work to change the image of our great city, then the thugs takes out innocent people on a daily basis and set everything back. I just get so angry about this!

Apparently these folks were a pillar in the community for years and these thugs ruined their lives in a matter of minutes for material goods.



At least they didn't get away with it. I for one hope they get raped many many times before the state snuffs out their worthless lives.

^I may have phrased it wrong...I was encouraged...I have a mind of my own and that is what I chose to do. It will not be an everyday thing to carry and act irresponsible. Just something to have in case......On top of that, I enjoy recreational target shooting at the local range. That may have played a part in the decision. By no means was I brain washed by a cop friend.



I think that some officters have better opinions than others. I happen to be very good friends with a lot of level headed guys, smart people, who happen to work in law enforcement. I do trust their opinions and why shouldn't I. They see what is really happening everyday, even in the 'low crime' areas, where some things never get leaked. I can't say all officers are that way, but for the most part, the majority are great sources of information and education as well.

^I agree, they can get jaded...but most can come back down to earth and give you a fair opinion. Some cannot, depends upon who you talk to.

I'm constantly reminded of Robert Heinlein's book "Starship Troopers".

The following link contains a quote from Heinlein's book in it's entirety.

For brevity, I've highlighted some parts relating to cruel and unusual punishment.



http://www.magma.ca/~yeti/troopers.html

"As for 'unusual,' punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose."



"It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct.

Back to these young criminals -- They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes.

The usual sentence was: for a first offence, a warning -- a scolding, often without trial. After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation.

A boy might be arrested may times and convicted several times before he was punished -- and then it would be merely confinement,

with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits.

...

If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment,

be given probation -- 'paroled' in the jargon of the times."

...



"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights' ... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."

This was published 50 years ago in 1959, yet it still very relevant today.



And I'll say it again. Punishment needs to be unusual and cruel for it to have any effect. If the judges won't do it, maybe we need new judges.

Starship Troopers was one of the worst novels I've ever read.

Gopher wrote:

And I'll say it again. Punishment needs to be unusual and cruel for it to have any effect. If the judges won't do it, maybe we need new judges.

Amen!

Matt Drops The H wrote:Tearing down the "Delmar Wall", building multi-racial and class-diverse coalitions to better our city, creating employment opportunities for the poor, working to help neighborhood organizations build capacity in their neighborhoods--all of these are difficult, long-term goals, but they're necessary to stabilizing our city.

You're right- these are great, albeit long-term, solutions, and I think they would address the root causes of this deplorable behavior well.



In the meantime, I have to agree with Dogtown and gopher: It's time to get serious about crime fighting- and it's time to send lenient judges packing. I don't know whether Coleman's example is a typical one, but if it is, then it speaks volumes about violent crime in St. Louis. Getting lenient judges out of the system- and electing judges that will work to ensure that the time is always appropriate for the crime- would be a great short-term start toward making St. Louis a much safer place.

Institute caning. I'm serious.

Unusual? Perhaps. But cruel? I could never get behind that. Solutions should be about reducing the cruelty that happens in the first place, not increasing it in response.