^ That's typical socialist delusion for you.
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race and urbanity have nothing to do with this. Doug's insults at those who want to live in a diverse and vibrant downtown without having to deal with this kind of crap are out of line.
It wouldn't matter if the crowd at 1014 resembled the Double Deuce from "Road House".
If they are causing the kind of problems that result in gunshots they need to shape up or ship out. And that's a reasonable request whether the crowd listens to Chingy or David Allen Coe.
It wouldn't matter if the crowd at 1014 resembled the Double Deuce from "Road House".
If they are causing the kind of problems that result in gunshots they need to shape up or ship out. And that's a reasonable request whether the crowd listens to Chingy or David Allen Coe.
Doug wrote:The programming at Ten14?
Move your ass to Chesterfield then!
That's a rebelliously NIMBY position and it's also reminiscent of the argument that video games like Doom or music like Marylin Manson provoked Columbine.
If you have a problem with guns, liquor, and violence then figure out a solution beyond telling clubs to change their programming and moving the blacks back to North City. Why don't you erect a yuppie wall around downtown and move everything out that offends you?
It's easy to pontificate from the safety of the suburbs: isn't it?
bonwich wrote:Why does it seem to me that free beer is a de facto violation of state liquor laws?
I also thought that advertising drink prices, especially for happy hours, was illegal in Missouri?
That's why you'll see some ads that will say:
instead of$ beers, $$ mixed drinks and $$$ Jaeger Bombs
$1 beers, $2 mixed drinks and $3 Jaeger Bombs
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More gunshots last night, relatively early, too. Not sure if it was related to Ten14 or not, but it was in the same vicinity.
Look, my position is this: Do whatever you want at Ten14. I don't care. Attract whatever crowd you want. Everyone knows in this economy, if you're getting ANYBODY out to spend money at your place, you're doing well. I don't fault them for attracting a crowd that's predominantly African-American. Be it Latinos, African-American, gay, straight, whatever, it doesn't bother me. Bring on the diversity. My problem is when guns come out. It's unnecessary, and Ten14 needs to do a better job policing the situation within their own club to make sure these people trying to bring in (or bringing in, really) weapons are denied entry and dealt with swiftly by the law.
Look, my position is this: Do whatever you want at Ten14. I don't care. Attract whatever crowd you want. Everyone knows in this economy, if you're getting ANYBODY out to spend money at your place, you're doing well. I don't fault them for attracting a crowd that's predominantly African-American. Be it Latinos, African-American, gay, straight, whatever, it doesn't bother me. Bring on the diversity. My problem is when guns come out. It's unnecessary, and Ten14 needs to do a better job policing the situation within their own club to make sure these people trying to bring in (or bringing in, really) weapons are denied entry and dealt with swiftly by the law.
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1000washington wrote:More gunshots last night, relatively early, too. Not sure if it was related to Ten14 or not, but it was in the same vicinity.
Someone briefly shot off fireworks here on Washington around 9:30 last night. Lasted about a minute. The next building but one from the Bogen.
I doubt the thugs are bringing guns inside. From what I read of the Isis murder, someone got pissed off inside the club. They left to get their gun, came back and waited for their target. The person was murdered in the streets, I believe. So, I don't know how much Ten14 can really do to control the crowd. They're just attracting the wrong kind of crowd.
If proven factual, this is now the second instance of gunfire outside their establishment in one week's time! After Lucky's changed their Sunday night programming, the mayhem stopped. Shouldn't the same happen for Ten14? Or perhaps they should just lose their liquor license and be forced to close. I've heard so many complaints about that club from residents downtown.
Time and time again, events have proven that downtown around the loft district or CBD is not a place for clubs that continually attract fights and gunfire. The Landing where no one lives? Ok. But this is beyond ridiculous.
What is our police department and Alderwoman Phyllis Young doing about this? Here's Phyllis' email address. Please tell her what you think about this nonsense: youngp@stlouiscity.com
If proven factual, this is now the second instance of gunfire outside their establishment in one week's time! After Lucky's changed their Sunday night programming, the mayhem stopped. Shouldn't the same happen for Ten14? Or perhaps they should just lose their liquor license and be forced to close. I've heard so many complaints about that club from residents downtown.
Time and time again, events have proven that downtown around the loft district or CBD is not a place for clubs that continually attract fights and gunfire. The Landing where no one lives? Ok. But this is beyond ridiculous.
What is our police department and Alderwoman Phyllis Young doing about this? Here's Phyllis' email address. Please tell her what you think about this nonsense: youngp@stlouiscity.com
i wish Sam Berger would just sell those two buildings, so something GOOD could go on that corner. everything else in this area is being rehabbed. I'd love to see this place shut its doors and I'd love to see that club clientele disappear from the downtown scene. I also doubt 1014 is as diverse now as it was in the video from a few years ago.
Attracting the wrong crowd!?
Do they advertise for gunplay?
Shut the hell up dude. Your comments are riddled with NIMBY racist stereotype. You sound like this 80 year old man I carted around at the Hibernian Patty's Day Parade. He said there were the "wrong color and crowd" at the downtown parade. That's essentially what you're saying. Violence is not tied to any specific type of programming, color, or neighborhood. It's a systemic problem that permeates our society and planet.
If you have a problem with guns and inner city violence then ban guns, bring back GM from Wentzville, and fix the SLPS. Give people something to live for and a reason to not throw it all away. When they have nothing to lose, combined with liquor, people do bad things. Maybe then we would see decreased violence and a greater awareness of the community and personal responsibility. Until then you're just saying move the problem elsewhere and it's not solved.
And I don't live in Wildwood! I pay to F.X. Daly like the rest of you!
Do they advertise for gunplay?
Shut the hell up dude. Your comments are riddled with NIMBY racist stereotype. You sound like this 80 year old man I carted around at the Hibernian Patty's Day Parade. He said there were the "wrong color and crowd" at the downtown parade. That's essentially what you're saying. Violence is not tied to any specific type of programming, color, or neighborhood. It's a systemic problem that permeates our society and planet.
If you have a problem with guns and inner city violence then ban guns, bring back GM from Wentzville, and fix the SLPS. Give people something to live for and a reason to not throw it all away. When they have nothing to lose, combined with liquor, people do bad things. Maybe then we would see decreased violence and a greater awareness of the community and personal responsibility. Until then you're just saying move the problem elsewhere and it's not solved.
And I don't live in Wildwood! I pay to F.X. Daly like the rest of you!
Streetfights and gunfire.Doug wrote:Attracting the wrong crowd!?
Does it matter? No.Doug wrote:Do they advertise for gunplay?
Eh, if you've read the arguments you'd know this has nothing to do with race. Bringing up gun control and SLPS are red herring arguments which have nothing to do with the subject matter. We're talking about a club drawing in clientele that puts the neighborhood in danger. It's irresponsible.Doug wrote:Your comments are riddled with NIMBY racist stereotype. If you have a problem with guns and inner city violence then ban guns, bring back GM from Wentzville, and fix the SLPS. Maybe then we would see decreased violence and a greater awareness of the community and personal responsibility. Until then you're just saying move the problem elsewhere and it's not solved.
Here's your red herring
It's completely related.
When people don't have a job, a future, and lack education and socialization to make correct judgments of their future and proper conduct in society, they make mistakes.
Like pulling out a gun and firing onto a crowd after they drank half of a bottle of Grey Goose.
Sorry but it's related. These are not independent variables. They are most certainly related and not meant to distract but to educate. Choose to ignore if that's your prerogative.
Owned you.
And now let's lighten the topic with the Olson twins:
image edited
When people don't have a job, a future, and lack education and socialization to make correct judgments of their future and proper conduct in society, they make mistakes.
Like pulling out a gun and firing onto a crowd after they drank half of a bottle of Grey Goose.
Sorry but it's related. These are not independent variables. They are most certainly related and not meant to distract but to educate. Choose to ignore if that's your prerogative.
Owned you.
And now let's lighten the topic with the Olson twins:
image edited
^ Ha, whatever. You're just playing.... No one has an obligation to invite crime into their neighborhood. There are responsible promoters that invite a diverse crowd and play rap, techno, r&b, rock without having the kinds of problems we have seen at Lucky's, Ten14 & Dolce. If you can't run a responsible business and instead become a nuisance to and endanger the neighborhood, the neighborhood will rise against you.
Of course we don't want to invite crime but don't dilute yourself to the point of believing that if these places are shut down then the City or Region becomes safer. The problem still exists! It's simply not downtown near your loft. It then moves elsewhere.
It's the same as suburban municipalities like Northwoods dumping the homeless in Lucas Park instead of establishing their own facilities and dealing with that problem themselves.
It's the same as suburban municipalities like Northwoods dumping the homeless in Lucas Park instead of establishing their own facilities and dealing with that problem themselves.
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I highly doubt the people bringing the guns downtown are the people living there. The people who live there are typically on the upper bracket of earnings (I assume), so I doubt they are carrying guns in to Ten14. So if they open up a club that attracts violence and general thuggery (fights, stabbings, shootings, etc) to a neighborhood that is not their own, I say let them take the violence back to their own neighborhood! So if the clubs are repeatedly moved from the neighborhood, eventually they'll stop or learn to monitor their patrons better. Until then, they can keep the violence in their own neighborhood.
But Doug, thank you thank you THANK YOU for the Olsen twins picture. If I hadn't read all of the comments previous to the Olsen pic, I would have declared you the victor of this argument.
But Doug, thank you thank you THANK YOU for the Olsen twins picture. If I hadn't read all of the comments previous to the Olsen pic, I would have declared you the victor of this argument.
All neighborhoods have the right to choose whether or not to accept and invite behavior like we have been discussing. Businesses like Ten14 that invite irresponsible promoters belong in an industrial area, away from innocent people. This way the disenchanted can "express" themselves (blow each other's brains out) without causing harm to others.Xing wrote:Please place all discussions of crime in here.
People can and should work on the root cause of these problems as well. But this is independent of personal responsibility and the right for a neighborhood to determine what is acceptable.
By the way, why was the thread renamed? What in the heck is "Crime Thread?" This thread is not for all discussions on crime. We're specifically talking about gunshots at Ten14 in the downtown neighborhood which was how the thread was labeled.
We're trying to get discussion of crime centralized. So many different things about crime get discussed and just clutter up the board. I don't know if other old threads will get added or not, but all future discussions should be in here. Actually, I think there may be an old crime thread that was working on this same idea. One of us may need to dig that up.
^ Heh, well maybe crime deserves its own category. Would that make things easier? Or maybe all talk about residential should go in the same thread just like crime? I mean, how are people supposed to have a coherent conversation on a specific criminal issue when there are 10 or more such issues to discuss at a time?
And just think of all the moderation work this is likely to create... Like it or not, people aren't apt to think of placing a new crime topic in an existing thread. They'll do what's natural and post it with an appropriate label for the discrete discussion.
In sum, it appears this will make discussions confusing because they'll be muddied in one thread and cause moderation headaches. What was the rationale for this change? Not being critical, just putting the thought out there cuz I think peeps are likely to be confused.
And just think of all the moderation work this is likely to create... Like it or not, people aren't apt to think of placing a new crime topic in an existing thread. They'll do what's natural and post it with an appropriate label for the discrete discussion.
In sum, it appears this will make discussions confusing because they'll be muddied in one thread and cause moderation headaches. What was the rationale for this change? Not being critical, just putting the thought out there cuz I think peeps are likely to be confused.
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Doug wrote:Of course we don't want to invite crime but don't dilute yourself to the point of believing that if these places are shut down then the City or Region becomes safer. The problem still exists! It's simply not downtown near your loft. It then moves elsewhere.
Good. Then it's not my problem anymore.
Beat cops are a great way to stabilize a neighborhood. Not only do the residents have the same neighborhood cop that they see all the time, but the cop can get a better feel for what is "going on" in the neighborhood before it's a problem.
They can also effectively communicate with the local residents about what is going on in the neighborhood. e.g. who to look out for, what problems are going on, etc.
They can also effectively communicate with the local residents about what is going on in the neighborhood. e.g. who to look out for, what problems are going on, etc.
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gopher wrote:Beat cops are a great way to stabilize a neighborhood. Not only do the residents have the same neighborhood cop that they see all the time, but the cop can get a better feel for what is "going on" in the neighborhood before it's a problem.
They can also effectively communicate with the local residents about what is going on in the neighborhood. e.g. who to look out for, what problems are going on, etc.
It would be great if there could be (is?) some sort of special taxing district downtown. $100 per year per resident/business, and this area could be crawling with cops, 24/7. "Problem" bars? Solved. Lucas Park camp outs? Solved.
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gopher wrote:Beat cops are a great way to stabilize a neighborhood. Not only do the residents have the same neighborhood cop that they see all the time, but the cop can get a better feel for what is "going on" in the neighborhood before it's a problem.
They can also effectively communicate with the local residents about what is going on in the neighborhood. e.g. who to look out for, what problems are going on, etc.
Thats a great idea.
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Beat cops would be just one part of a comprehensive and well executed strategy which is sorely needed in this City. Tonight alone in Benton Park we've heard at about a dozen gunshots from at two distinct locations. At least this isn't as bad as the 300+ rounds of 'celebratory' gunfire the other night (new year's eve).
The parking I use downtown had over 20 break-ins between July-December (one guy was hit three times in two months). Now ksdk is running a story about some guy protesting at lumiere because his car was broken into twice in their garage.
I hate to be defeatist but with the PD running an abuse-of-authority scandal every month or so, they seem so busy covering their own behind that I don't think we can expect much when it comes to covering ours.
Although it may not be run strictly by us, it is our police department. What, constructively, can we do to hold management more accountable over there (without devolving into the black hole of self-governance)? Also, this is a simple question but I've never checked...how many of the PD board members actually live in STL City?
The parking I use downtown had over 20 break-ins between July-December (one guy was hit three times in two months). Now ksdk is running a story about some guy protesting at lumiere because his car was broken into twice in their garage.
I hate to be defeatist but with the PD running an abuse-of-authority scandal every month or so, they seem so busy covering their own behind that I don't think we can expect much when it comes to covering ours.
Although it may not be run strictly by us, it is our police department. What, constructively, can we do to hold management more accountable over there (without devolving into the black hole of self-governance)? Also, this is a simple question but I've never checked...how many of the PD board members actually live in STL City?
Technically, it's not "our" police department. It's controlled by the state which is why Slay is fighting for local control so that it's accountable to us and not the governor.
http://www.pubdef.net/2008/03/17/slay-on-local-control/
and here....
http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=1167
Other cities have this...
e.g.
NY : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_P ... ganization
In fact... most cities nationwide have local control (except Kansas City I believe).
Personally, I think we really should have local control over the dollars that we spend from our taxes on our police force and not rely on people from Jefferson city to make these decisions for us.
I totally agree that beat cops are just one part of a more comprehensive and well executed strategy. And agree that our media is killing not only our police morale, but also everything from consumer confidence, to quality of life. How many positive stories have you read or seen?
The cops in the SLMPD are excellent, professional, hard working individuals who literally put their life on the line to protect us each and every day. They deserve more than to be slapped in the face each and every day by the media and need our support and encouragement. If the PD and other media won't do it, we need to.
Write letters of support to your local commanders, raise funds for back stoppers, guns & hoses, hell, buy your cops and firefighters gift cards to Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts (cliche I know), or even a simple thank you when you see them on the street. This type of grass roots support goes a long way to letting our civil servants know that we support them regardless of what the media is saying.
For that matter, if you run a business and advertise with a paper that is giving constant negative press, why would you continue to advertise?
Think about it... the more the media keeps saying, "the end is neigh" it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
http://www.pubdef.net/2008/03/17/slay-on-local-control/
and here....
http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=1167
Other cities have this...
e.g.
NY : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_P ... ganization
In fact... most cities nationwide have local control (except Kansas City I believe).
Personally, I think we really should have local control over the dollars that we spend from our taxes on our police force and not rely on people from Jefferson city to make these decisions for us.
I totally agree that beat cops are just one part of a more comprehensive and well executed strategy. And agree that our media is killing not only our police morale, but also everything from consumer confidence, to quality of life. How many positive stories have you read or seen?
The cops in the SLMPD are excellent, professional, hard working individuals who literally put their life on the line to protect us each and every day. They deserve more than to be slapped in the face each and every day by the media and need our support and encouragement. If the PD and other media won't do it, we need to.
Write letters of support to your local commanders, raise funds for back stoppers, guns & hoses, hell, buy your cops and firefighters gift cards to Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts (cliche I know), or even a simple thank you when you see them on the street. This type of grass roots support goes a long way to letting our civil servants know that we support them regardless of what the media is saying.
For that matter, if you run a business and advertise with a paper that is giving constant negative press, why would you continue to advertise?
Think about it... the more the media keeps saying, "the end is neigh" it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.