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PostAug 25, 2019#7351

As predicated, people are uncomfortable about having an actual convo about why crime exists in such high numbers in the black community.

I tried to start with post WWII housing policy which was the beginning of suburbs but didn’t allow AAs or AA veterans to move there. Part 2 of this is highways- here is a good example. https://nyti.ms/2HoC1am

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PostAug 26, 2019#7352

Six homicides this past weekend; half of the dead are children. I don't care how uncomfortable the conversations get, we've gotta get past them. Assigning blame in broad strokes is not what anyone is seeking; I'm pretty sure it's putting in play pragmatic, actionable solutions that everyone wants to see implemented. 

Gun control is part of this, and it is certainly not the only part. We do have to acknowledge the fact that this City is witnessing a small group of young men who do pretty much all the shooting. These young men are 16-29; from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, frequently broken homes; are under-educated; have little expectations of making it to age 40 and therefore have a F-it-all mindset; suffer from repeated psychological traumas; feed off the underground markets for illicit narcotics; have pretty much no marketable employment skills; often have a criminal record; and have an indifference to the lives of others. It's only a couple hundred young men (for the sake of discussion, let's say 1,500) who are going around causing so much harm, pain, and suffering, and they destroy the City for the rest of us. 

Now, here's the uncomfortable part... These 1,500 young men are, by and large, African American. We all know that there is no causal relationship between a person being African American and being predisposed, genetically, to this population of 1,500 young men causing all the troubles. Anyone who says so can F right off. We can see that there remain certain socioeconomic barriers (what I call the Ghost of Jim Crow) that need to be overcome for a significant number of African Americans in the City, and the County, and elsewhere. Solving these barriers is not an easy task, and we all have to recognize that it will not all be solved any time soon. I do believe we will get to socioeconomic parity in the relative future, but we're not there today. 

We also should acknowledge how STL is not the only city in which these factors are at play. I look to the post-reconstruction era all the way to the start of the modern Civil Rights movement, and I can see patterns of migration from the South to cities in the North. You can see histories of large African American migration patterns to cities up the Mississippi, first to Memphis and then to STL; for others, the path went up to Chicago and then Detroit. My former business partner was African American, and he came to STL in 1955 from Mississippi, while he was still a boy, when Emmett Till was murdered and his family said it was time to leave Jackson. They had family here and transitioned well, but for others not so economically viable things weren't so easy. In effect, the US witnessed what can be called in retrospect large migrations of poor ethnic minority refugees from the South to the cities of the North, which were never really planned or anticipated. Such population shifts have taken place throughout history, just not often within one country during peacetime. Past efforts at managing the effects of these migrations took place on a top-down level, from housing projects to school busing programs to the growth of social welfare programs, with varying degrees of successes and failures. Still, our country is left today with a large population of America that is urban and disadvantaged because of historical circumstances beyond their controls, who just happen to be African American. 
*Note: Anyone have issues with my word choice or phraseology, please know that my intent comes from a good place. 

This is all prologue, to get that talk out of the way. Now back to the crime part of the crime thread... 

What the hell do we do to stop eight year old girls being shot on Friday nights? $25K rewards? Check out that linked article and see the pictures of these kids... They're the City's children, and they are being murdered. We've got to hit up both ends of the spectrum for this. On one side, we need to back groups that further the advancement of the urban black underclasses; I'm quite fond of both For The Sake Of All and Better Family Life. We need to donate, and we need to volunteer. Concurrently, we need to back the StLPD, for us all to report crimes when we see them, anything that makes it so hard for the criminal options to exist that it gets these 1,500 young men to put down the guns, go to jail, or move far away - not by threats or any of that crap, but by making it so difficult to conduct illicit business that they move to "better markets". We also need to acknowledge that East STL and the Near East Side is lawless and desperate. And, we need to see our politicians enacting policies that will actually accomplish meaningful changes, not just talk but delivering actionable policies that are funded and supported. I can't stomach little kids being murdered anymore. 

We all need to be angry. 

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PostAug 26, 2019#7353

Here is the uncomfortable part of the conversation: most criminals acquire guns that were legally purchased (either by using straw buyers, stealing them from houses and cars, etc.). If we substantially restrict the legal acquisition of murder weapons, the number of guns outstanding and usable for criminal activity would plummet. 

Does this directly address the structural problems that affect urban African American populations? Not directly. We still need investment in education, training, social programs, and in dismantling existing discriminatory social structures. Does this at least prevent the bloodbath? Yes.

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PostAug 29, 2019#7354

I know this is off topic and I won't drag it out any more but, relating to the conversation above, this just happened about a block from the house that I'm unfortunately still paying for but no longer living in.

https://www.kmov.com/news/south-city-ba ... 5c33c.html

Dude robs corner bar with assault rifle. Just another day in non-Central-Corridor-adjacent South City.

Like warwickland said, burnout is a real thing. Yes, St. Louis has affordable semi-urbanity compared to many other places, but existing in that semi-urbanity kind-of sucks outside of a handful of neighborhoods. And, yes, St. Louis has some very nice don't-need-to-lock-your-door suburbs, but I don't want to live in a suburb. I've moved to a small Mid-Atlantic college city where I can walk pretty-much everywhere (even at night) and I'm a short train ride from big city amenities. I'll be in St. Louis frequently and who knows what the future holds, but I can't live there until sh*t like the above doesn't happen every other day.

By the way, the 2755 Chippewa rehab looks really nice.

EDIT: And another double murder. LESS than a block from my South City house. I've reported this place for suspicious activity on multiple occasions.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... hor_item_2

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PostAug 29, 2019#7355

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... 756.html#2

Sounds like they may have gotten the guy, though. 

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PostAug 29, 2019#7356

^^ right around the corner from my house! yay!

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PostAug 29, 2019#7357

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... paign=dlvr

Charges in a south city shooting from last week

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PostAug 29, 2019#7358

Kim Gardner will botch it.

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PostAug 30, 2019#7359

KansasCitian wrote: Kim Gardner will botch it.
We absolutely need to vote her out next year.

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PostAug 30, 2019#7360

"Unfortunately, Gardner can’t offer a better outcome at trial. Her office’s current trial conviction rate hovers around 20%. For perspective, under her predecessor, the trial conviction rate was over 80%. To be clear, these are cases Gardner took to trial because she believed that offered the best outcome. Meaning, even when Gardner’s office takes a case seriously enough to go to trial, they lose 80% of the time, and those charged with murder, violent assaults and rapes go free."

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/column ... 6e643.html

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PostAug 30, 2019#7361

So, how'd this individual get into this position? A backtrack would be good so we know how to avoid something similar next time.

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PostAug 30, 2019#7362

framer wrote: "Unfortunately, Gardner can’t offer a better outcome at trial. Her office’s current trial conviction rate hovers around 20%. For perspective, under her predecessor, the trial conviction rate was over 80%. To be clear, these are cases Gardner took to trial because she believed that offered the best outcome. Meaning, even when Gardner’s office takes a case seriously enough to go to trial, they lose 80% of the time, and those charged with murder, violent assaults and rapes go free."

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/column ... 6e643.html
There is no evidence to prove any of the numbers Carl throws out there. One that is provable is that she spent $100,000 of her own money during the campaign she lost to Gardner

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PostAug 30, 2019#7363

^Regardless if what Mary Pat Carl said is true or not, one thing is true: Kim Gardner isn’t helping the situation any. That article has several good points that most people agree with and understand.

Kim Gardner let the thug go and said there was insufficient evidence to prosecute him in the case regarding Xavier’s murder. The guy confessed to the crime and she’s just going to let him off the hook? That doesn’t help the situation at all and is a huge F.U. to the families who want justice for their dead kids. Why would anyone trust her when she pulls a stunt like this?

She promised so much and has delivered so little. We can’t afford to continue under this “leadership”. People are dying while politicians sit there clueless and twirling thumbs around. Ask the state. Ask the feds. If neither help, work together and come up with solutions. First order of business needs to be getting Gardner on the track of prosecuting these bums before they can do more harm. At the same time, politicians must not be so over themselves that everything they do is for their own good. Put the city first, it will help us out. Finally, the police department needs to be reorganized to implement crime fighting techniques that are efficient (so we don’t overwork our already understaffed police force) and work to reduce crime. This can all be done if we put our minds to it instead of bickering about it.

This issue has gotten so bad that a friend of mine, who lives in Dubai, said that these child murders were on TV there. Our international image is being tainted by this inaction.

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PostAug 30, 2019#7364

chriss752 wrote:
Kim Gardner let the thug go and said there was insufficient evidence to prosecute him in the case regarding Xavier’s murder. The guy confessed to the crime and she’s just going to let him off the hook? That doesn’t help the situation at all and is a huge F.U. to the families who want justice for their dead kids. Why would anyone trust her when she pulls a stunt like this?

That’s not exactly what happened. The investigation is still on going because the guy claimed he shot at the 18 year old as self defense and there is no other evidence to prove otherwise at this point. There is a scenario where both get charged with something soon

Nobody is going to say that Gardner has done a good job, she hasn’t but arm chair QBing from opponents that lost to her isn’t necessarily good timing when parents are planning funerals

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PostAug 30, 2019#7365

Well considering that kids are being shot every week in St. Louis when exactly is the moratorium on criticizing the Circuit Attorney going to expire?

I don't blame juries for failing to convict when Gardner brings cases. In nearly every of these cases that I have read about, Gardner has failed to provide adequate evidence that the person they charged actually committed the crime. I imagine that if she had achieved convictions that a judge very well could have tossed them out down the line, and in at least one case it seemed pretty obvious that she was charging the wrong person. This is leaving aside her horrible botching of the Eric Greitens affair, which even more starkly put her incompetence on display. 

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PostAug 30, 2019#7366

Police detectives investigate, gather evidence and go to the CAO to ask for a warrant and a charge. Plenty of blame for faulty evidence and lack of trail success rate

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PostAug 30, 2019#7367

dbInSouthCity wrote: Police detectives investigate, gather evidence and go to the CAO to ask for a warrant and a charge.  Plenty of blame for faulty evidence and lack of trail success rate
So what is the implication here? Since the police managed to turn over sufficient evidence to Jennifer Joyce for a decade and a half without apparent issue, why had their effectiveness fallen off? Do you think they are deliberately sabotaging Gardner with the outcome that murders get to walk the streets? Or have their investigative methods declined in effectiveness? This of course still doesn't explain why so often on cases Gardner decides to go to trial she loses, of course, but you don't seem concerned with that at all. 

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PostAug 30, 2019#7368

Ebsy wrote:
dbInSouthCity wrote: Police detectives investigate, gather evidence and go to the CAO to ask for a warrant and a charge.  Plenty of blame for faulty evidence and lack of trail success rate
So what is the implication here? Since the police managed to turn over sufficient evidence to Jennifer Joyce for a decade and a half without apparent issue, why had their effectiveness fallen off? Do you think they are deliberately sabotaging Gardner with the outcome that murders get to walk the streets? Or have their investigative methods declined in effectiveness? This of course still doesn't explain why so often on cases Gardner decides to go to trial she loses, of course, but you don't seem concerned with that at all. 
I guess when you just assume and make up things I’m concerned about it’s true?  As stated many reply’s ago, I said Gardner has failed on many fronts.  That doesn’t mean the PD hasn’t failed either.    I don’t know what Carl said in her op ed is true when it comes to conviction rates, she doesn’t provide any data to back it up.   From experience in the case I’m a witness to, a assault with a deadly weapon, CAO has been very good to work with

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PostAug 30, 2019#7369

I've met Mary Pat Carl before and she didn't strike me as a liar, but I take your point that conviction rate data is not available at a glance. I look forward to the Circuit Attorney's office publishing numbers refuting this if they do exist.

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PostSep 01, 2019#7370

Ebsy wrote:
dbInSouthCity wrote: Police detectives investigate, gather evidence and go to the CAO to ask for a warrant and a charge.  Plenty of blame for faulty evidence and lack of trail success rate
So what is the implication here? Since the police managed to turn over sufficient evidence to Jennifer Joyce for a decade and a half without apparent issue, why had their effectiveness fallen off? Do you think they are deliberately sabotaging Gardner with the outcome that murders get to walk the streets? Or have their investigative methods declined in effectiveness? This of course still doesn't explain why so often on cases Gardner decides to go to trial she loses, of course, but you don't seem concerned with that at all. 
I don't have statistics and I haven't conducted a scientific survey, to be sure, but having spoken with a fair few beat cops over the last few years I can say there is a certain animosity to Gardner common on the force. I don't know how common, but common enough uniformed officers will speak about it openly to civilians while on duty. Fearlessly. Shamelessly. There are officers who would sabotage her, absolutely.

I would be interested to see how much turnover there has been in the department, what the quality of new recruits looks like statistically, what effects changes at the top of the department and in other related offices have made. There's no question in my mind that change was needed, and more is called for. But there's so much mud getting slung about here I'm not quite ready to throw Gardner under the bus before the facts are all brought to light. Particularly when I'm dead certain there are indeed problems in other offices as well.

And in the end . . . if you want to solve our crime problem the first step is probably to fix the opportunity problem. Which means you'll need to solve the education problem. And probably also the wealth problem. Desperate times breed desperate measures. There are a lot of people stuck in desperation right now. Is the rest really any wonder?

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PostSep 02, 2019#7371

I’m curious if some of the proposed developments near Old North and Hyde Park might help stabilize some of the issues. I believe UIC has the option to redevelop and build on some LRA lots up there, and if even a small island of stability can be made it might help radiate out. It won’t be a cure all by any means but getting people to invest and ideally move into some of these areas is a much needed piece to the puzzle.

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PostSep 03, 2019#7372

symphonicpoet wrote:
Ebsy wrote:
dbInSouthCity wrote: Police detectives investigate, gather evidence and go to the CAO to ask for a warrant and a charge.  Plenty of blame for faulty evidence and lack of trail success rate
So what is the implication here? Since the police managed to turn over sufficient evidence to Jennifer Joyce for a decade and a half without apparent issue, why had their effectiveness fallen off? Do you think they are deliberately sabotaging Gardner with the outcome that murders get to walk the streets? Or have their investigative methods declined in effectiveness? This of course still doesn't explain why so often on cases Gardner decides to go to trial she loses, of course, but you don't seem concerned with that at all. 
I don't have statistics and I haven't conducted a scientific survey, to be sure, but having spoken with a fair few beat cops over the last few years I can say there is a certain animosity to Gardner common on the force. I don't know how common, but common enough uniformed officers will speak about it openly to civilians while on duty. Fearlessly. Shamelessly. There are officers who would sabotage her, absolutely.
We do have some evidence of this from few months ago when an officer who was on the exclusion list went in to the CAO to get a warrant and secretly taped getting rejected-  SL Police Officers association posted the secret video saying CAO was rejected legit warrants but they didn't say the the officer they sent was on the exclusion list (because he had credibility issues)

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PostSep 08, 2019#7373

We had Ms. Gardner at our Neighborhood meeting last week. It was interesting to hear her perspective on some of the issues noted in this thread, a perspective you never hear reading the Post-Disgrace or really any other local media. 

[Not to get conspiratorial, but an anonymous somebody dropped off a giant packet of materials at the Y for delivery to our meeting. It consisted of print-outs of the Mary Pat Carl op-ed, another from the P-D critical of Gardner, and a record of civil actions (i.e. as a civilian, not the CA) against her, her family, etc.). We did not hand this crap out to our members because of the propagandistic nature of it, and the fact that it was sent by anonymous whomever].

Paraphrasing, but the change in conviction rates and overall decline in convictions and sentences since Jennifer Joyce's reign is down in large part to changes to the state's Stand Your Ground Laws that have taken place in the last few years. These changes make it (a) much easier for defendants to claim "self-defense," (b) more difficult for police to determine the aggressors (they all look like aggressors, i.e. are armed and shooting), and (c) for prosecutors to try cases and judges to adjudicate accordingly. Some may also be down to incompetence (whether within the CAO, the SLPD, the judiciary, etc.), but that's not as clear as how the MO General Assembly is mucking up the laws to make life harder for everyone except the criminals. Making MO a no-permit, open and concealed carry for anyone/everyone who desires it, is another example of how MOGA's quest to return MO to pre-Civil War society has totally ***** our urban areas. Permit checks were one of the cops' most reliable ways to get illegal guns off the street, which MOGA effectively removed in 2018, among other truly dumbshit, gun-fetish policies.

Regarding her relationship with the police, apparently a list of officers that are persona non grata is nothing new and every CAO everywhere keeps such a list. The difference is that SLPD (or maybe it was the POA) decided to make hers a matter of public record, presumably for political reasons. The CAO rationale is that these cops are either (a) incompetent or (b) some kind of corrupt, such that the cases they bring aren't worth prosecuting given likely failure and limited resources.

Seems the CAO is focused on working with social service and education agencies on early interventions, avoiding incarceration in favor of rehabilitative efforts, e.g. community service, when possible; and generally trying to keep non-violent offenders with difficult life circumstances from becoming hardened lifetime criminals. The problem, which she acknowledged, is that it's already too late for many of our youth, who have no education or job skills, often little if any social skills, no prospects for gaining any of those things, no opportunity to use them in gainful employment even if acquired, AND UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO FIREARMS. These societal problems are of course beyond the ability of the CAO to fix (and arguably not even part of its mission). 

For me, I generally support the job she's doing, or at least trying to do, recognizing that the status quo is totally ***** and in need of significant overhaul. Whether she's really the person to be taking that on is up for debate, though the Greitens ordeal and the enormous exodus of attorneys from the CAO certainly suggests she's in over her head

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PostSep 16, 2019#7374

Welp, this one hits close to home: I have been at that place and at that time several times
https://www.kmov.com/news/man-shot-at-a ... ssion=true

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PostSep 16, 2019#7375

If I had to put some money down I’d say this is a love triangle

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