urbanSTL

Three of four guns recovered in today's incident were stolen. Irresponsible legal gun buyers from across Missouri are fueling the gun explosion and associated crime.

MarkHaversham wrote:I don't think protesting an injustice imparts a moral obligation to protest every other injustice exactly as vociferously, and I don't think not protesting all injustices equally implies anything like a lack of credibility, even if we assume those injustices are all intrinsically equal to begin with.

If that's the case, then why do protesters seem to embrace a 'one size fits all' mentality when they show up after every officer-involved shooting with an African-American suspect/victim? Let's face it: there have been some shootings where officers were clearly in the wrong, others in which they were justified, and many more where the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Earlier today, basic facts were still unknown and the police was in the process of gathering them after the latest police-involved shooting when roughly 100 people showed up at the scene of the crime. Even "if we assume those injustices are all intrinsically evil", wouldn't it be in protesters' best interests to get some facts before they react?

I say f*** the protesters they do not have plan and do not really have any Idea what change is or what they want. They just want to make noise and to be a star on twitter. This people blame the cops of all off the issues in their lives maybe they all need to look in the mirror for starters. I know cops do a lot of messed up stuff but BLM will never go anywhere to they get a clear plan. All this would do is help the Gop in 2016.

Let's face it folks. All the talk about cop/citizen relations is a distraction and will never change what's causing these problems. The problem is we have a HUGE black underclass. That underclass is frustrated, tired, out of work, and angry. It doesn't take much to cause a protest.

These people don't care about their "relationships" with cops. They care about being in this mess. And they don't have many ways to express their dismay. So they express it by angry protests.

Virvus Jones seems to be the only public figure in St. Louis addressing this problem head on. And when he does, what do you hear? Nothing. Then people rewind the tape and start defending the cops, saying things like "all lives matter", etc.

The protestors are loosing credibility and everyone knows this. It's unfortunate because some cases do need to be addressed such as the one in north charleston and New York, but almost all others seem justified to me. The little clergy members, mostly white ones, trying to gain popularity from this are the absolute biggest jokes to me.

The protestors are loosing credibility and everyone knows this.

They've lost all credibility in my eyes.

From showing up at a police involved shooting and throwing rocks and vulgarities before facts are known and hampering an investigation in progress, to people who weren't even at the scene saying "that's not the way it happened", to protest groups bailing people accused of serious crimes out of jail http://fox2now.com/2015/08/18/protest-g ... y-charges/...it's all just nonsense.

This movement is aimless with no direction and has no idea (or no interest in) how to accomplish the goal they say they're all about....and then we have the criminal element that tags along with them just waiting for trouble to start so they can take out their frustration/exploit the situation or whatever in a violent way at the expense of innocent business owners and residents.

I definitely support the idea and cause, but I absolutely do not support the methods and actions.

They're not making people "uncomfortable", they're destroying any hope at building community and trust with the police. But I'm pretty much convinced that is the real goal now given the actions I've seen over the past few months.

NN is right....we need J-O-B-S. It seems what we're seeing now is what happens when a region stagnates for decades as we have.

It is incredible how many people apparently used to celebrate black rights before "they lost all credibility" or whatever. I don't remember the fervent discussion of how much the black community has been wronged a few years ago, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

All of us who let things get to this point are at fault, by not addressing economic and judicial injustices before a community reached the point of protesting. This is a group of people that do not have a lot of resources at their disposal; they don't have capital to invest in their communities, they don't have political leverage... the only thing they have is nothing to lose, and that's the asset they're using here.

All of us who let things get to this point are at fault, by not addressing economic and judicial injustices before a community reached the point of protesting. This is a group of people that do not have a lot of resources at their disposal; they don't have capital to invest in their communities, they don't have political leverage... the only thing they have is nothing to lose, and that's the asset they're using here.

This is an easy way out and a way to excuse the violence.

This group of people has the ears of the world and of prominent politicians the leaders of these various protest groups most definitely have a way to be heard.

I also think the self-righteous attitudes like yours are a big part of the problem (from reading past posts etc.). There is no room for compromise or discussion. You insult and use sarcasm & hyperbole to make your points. So this will be my last post addressing your comments.

Three of four guns recovered in today's incident were stolen. Irresponsible legal gun buyers from across Missouri are fueling the gun explosion and associated crime.

I agree. One of the guns recovered from the Ball-Bey shooting last night was registered in Rolla. I think there needs to be some sort of civil action against gun owners for crimes committed with their weapons. If you want to carry around a gun in your car, you need to bear the responsibility of its actions directly or indirectly.

Whoops...losing not loosing. Embarrassed.


Still, these "protestors" are now a joke in most peoples eyes, especially for many in the black community. The police are still there to protect these poor communities and most cops aren't there to harass these citizens despite the white, liberal-guilt media narrative.

And if your gun is stolen, I'm not sure crimes committed with it are the owners fault. How about we lock up these criminals for 30 years, and people with absurd drug charges can be released.

Agreed, MH is admitted Socialist. I wouldn't mind but he does his beliefs no good by being so condescending...His "smartest-guy-in-the-rrom" schtik sucks also.

His belief is to throw more money and resources at poverty and my question is: We have been doing that for 70 years and it's only gotten worse....I guees no one wants to take heed of Daniel Moynihan's observations...

Just to be clear, I'm talking about civil action here not criminal action. It wouldn't be considered abetting a crime. I'm talking about paying financial penalty's or fines because of the damages caused by your gun.

The point isn't to create standards of responsibility. There's shouldn't be a standard of minimum security of a gun. That's up to the owner. And its a case by case issue.

The ultimate purpose of a gun is to kill. It is designed and built to take life, animal or human. With that I think comes a certain amount of responsibility. More so than say owning a car or a house.

I think there is a case to be made by those on the receiving end of damages from a gun. I think if the owner has not done his/her due diligence in safe guarding that weapon, it is reasonable for someone to sue for damages in a civil case. I think that ability to sue the gun owner would deter gun owners from bringing them into the city to be stolen.

shimmy wrote:I don't understand this logic:

The "protestors" committing crimes are actually victims because it's society's fault that they're committing crimes, but the legal gun owners who were a victim of a crime are criminals.

Uh, what?

That makes at least two of us. These people who steal guns and who use them to terrorize other people and to engage in combat with police are the issue here, not the legal gun owners from whom these guns are stolen (even if some gun owners REALLY ought to be more careful). I suppose victim blaming is fashionable because personal responsibility is anathema to so many people these days. Those who steal these guns and use them to terrorize others (and engage in combat with police as one of the fleeing suspects apparently did yesterday) are sociopaths with zero regard for human life.

Of course, we as a society should work to address the lack of opportunity and the strained police-community relations in African-American communities for the betterment of everyone who lives in them. There are some people, however, who cannot and do not want to be saved. They exist in all communities and all demographic groups, but we have to face the facts that they are in disproportionate numbers in places like north St. Louis, North County, and parts of south St. Louis as well. I agree with jcity, as sentencing for gun-related crimes should be strict and mandatory, and people with lesser offenses should have their sentences reduced or should be freed depending on the crimes they've committed and the time they've served. Also, we as a society have to be better stewards of resources, because I agree with sirshankalot about the futility of pouring gazillions of dollars into social programs. Today, as a result, we don't just have broken communities, now we have unrest at the drop of a hat as well.

Northside Neighbor wrote:Virvus Jones seems to be the only public figure in St. Louis addressing this problem head on. And when he does, what do you hear? Nothing. Then people rewind the tape and start defending the cops, saying things like "all lives matter", etc.

Serious question...what is Virvus Jones doing? I like to think I'm well-informed, or at least I try to be, but I must have missed any coverage of what he's doing related to this because I haven't heard him address the issue.

In my opinion, Black Lives Matter effectively died when they were booed at the Bernie Sanders rally in Seattle a few weeks ago.

I clicked the link Framer gave about the hundreds who protested the senseless criminal violence on Saturday.

It's a shame many of those seeking Twitter fame from last night's unneeded protest aren't as interested in events like the one Saturday

But it's also disappointing when the same old white faces who ask where the protesters are for victims of violent crime show up in the comments and mock those who took part in an event doing exactly that.

olvidarte wrote: This is an easy way out and a way to excuse the violence.

This group of people has the ears of the world and of prominent politicians the leaders of these various protest groups most definitely have a way to be heard.

I also think the self-righteous attitudes like yours are a big part of the problem (from reading past posts etc.). There is no room for compromise or discussion. You insult and use sarcasm & hyperbole to make your points. So this will be my last post addressing your comments.

Sorry the poor underclass isn't protesting their oppression politely enough to deserve your attentions. But seriously, that's a time-honored tactic by the powers-that-be to downplay the needy. The "I'm not a bad person for oppressing them, they're bad people for being oppressed!" defense.

shimmy wrote:I don't understand this logic:

The "protestors" committing crimes are actually victims because it's society's fault that they're committing crimes, but the legal gun owners who were a victim of a crime are criminals.

Uh, what?

The only crimes the protesters are committing are disruption of the society that largely acts like the poor black community is obligated to just quietly hide in a corner and die instead of inconveniently demanding their rights be honored. If you're referring to various violent criminals, well, I can't see how you would blame people demanding their rights for having violent criminals in proximity to them, but the idiots who inadvertently supply the weapons are blameless. The protesters don't even want to live in communities full of violent criminals, they do so because society forces them to.

sirshankalot wrote:Agreed, MH is admitted Socialist. I wouldn't mind but he does his beliefs no good by being so condescending...His "smartest-guy-in-the-rrom" schtik sucks also.

His belief is to throw more money and resources at poverty and my question is: We have been doing that for 70 years and it's only gotten worse....I guees no one wants to take heed of Daniel Moynihan's observations...

I don't think posting obvious facts (like "poor people need more money") supported by ample evidence is a "schtick", but whatever. To address your point, no we haven't been throwing resources at poverty as it's gotten worse. The major poverty-reduction programs we have, like Social Security and Medicare, have actually worked incredibly well; elderly poverty is dramatically. Other programs like "food stamps" work somewhat, but they only accomplish their stated goal of mitigating food shortages. But ultimately we've been getting our money's worth out of our anti-poverty spending; the problems that remain are the result of not spending enough. We spend enough to keep poor people from starving, but not enough for them to build the capital they need to get themselves out of poverty (e.g., saving up to buy a car to get to work reduces welfare payments to the point you can no longer afford to maintain your car). The notion that we've been spending money to no result is completely mysterious to me, and I've never been able to find any argument in support of it. It seems to be simply a fabrication people tell themselves to dismiss the need to spend on poverty reduction.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defaul ... mbargo.pdf
http://www.cbpp.org/commentary-war-on-p ... ew&id=4074

What Virvus Jones is doing is calling attention to the problem - poverty.

I am friends with him on Facebook and listen to him on the radio and read what he writes.

He is consistently making the point that poverty is the father of crime and conditions in poor black neighborhoods are what is the source of these problems.

The poverty and conditions are awful. Those concerns lead to social unrest.

It has nothing to do with relationships with police.

MarkHaversham wrote:

olvidarte wrote: This is an easy way out and a way to excuse the violence.

This group of people has the ears of the world and of prominent politicians the leaders of these various protest groups most definitely have a way to be heard.

I also think the self-righteous attitudes like yours are a big part of the problem (from reading past posts etc.). There is no room for compromise or discussion. You insult and use sarcasm & hyperbole to make your points. So this will be my last post addressing your comments.

MarkHaversham wrote:Sorry the poor underclass isn't protesting their oppression politely enough to deserve your attentions. But seriously, that's a time-honored tactic by the powers-that-be to downplay the needy. The "I'm not a bad person for oppressing them, they're bad people for being oppressed!" defense.

Well, I guess we should start by congratulating Olivdarte for achieving the lofty status as "the powers that be" today.

You're a sick ***** Haversham.

leeharveyawesome wrote: Well, I guess we should start by congratulating Olivdarte for achieving the lofty status as "the powers that be" today.

You're a sick f*** Haversham.

I don't know if Olivdarte is one of the PTB or has just internalized their arguments, but it doesn't really matter. Even black people themselves begin to believe this stuff. That has no bearing on the correctness of the arguments.

The English oppressed the Irish for centuries, and pushed the idea that the Irish were a lesser race, while starving them of resources and blaming the Irish's own lack of civilized culture. Over time the Irish got out from under the English heel and proved that there was nothing inherently wrong with their genetics or their culture. The English PTBs and the civilians who went along with their assertions were eventually proven completely wrong; few people today would dismiss complaints on the basis of "uppity Irishmen", or demand Irish neighborhood leaders to speak out against crimes committed by red-heads. If a group of homeowners in Dogtown complains about crime, few would simply point out that 85% of white homicides are committed by other whites, and demand they get their own house in order before bothering people about it. Hopefully, someday laying blame on blacks as a group will seem just as ridiculous.

Someone complained that I don't allow room for discussion. I guess that means that I post documented facts instead of trading debatable anecdotes? But if people are going to stick their heads in the sand and insist that blacks are treated completely fairly as a group by society, despite all evidence to the contrary, then there's really no basis for discussion.

Someone complained that I don't allow room for discussion. I guess that means that I post documented facts instead of trading debatable anecdotes? But if people are going to stick their heads in the sand and insist that blacks are treated completely fairly as a group by society, despite all evidence to the contrary, then there's really no basis for discussion.

^ he's got a point.