urbanSTL

Two quick points. As for the stolen gun issue, it's kind of like the whole "rape culture" debate. Arguing that gun owners should be punished for allowing their guns to be stolen is the same logic behind dismissing rape because a girl was "asking for it" based on what she was wearing. In both cases, you're punishing the victim of a crime who was simply exercising his or her rights, regardless of the precautions they took against potential threats. Gun owners should secure their guns, and I'm going to tell my daughter to take precautions because there are ****ed up predators out there who don't give a damn about her rights. Unfortunately, that's just the reality in which we live. But you can't punish people for exercising their rights.

As for the rest of the debate, the way I see it, either you believe in personal responsibility or you don't. Whatever legitimate complaints that this disorganized social movement has have been completely discredited by the manner in which they have managed their movement. You can keep screaming about whatever injustices you want, but most of America has tuned out and just rolls their eyes when they see unrest over the most obviously justified use of police force. Assaulting police officers, looting stores, and chaining yourself to a barrel in the middle of rush hour to prevent people from getting to work and ambulances from getting to hospitals is stupidity. And defending it as being caused by "the system" just continues to bring discredit on whatever other points you may have.

threeonefour wrote:These people who steal guns and who use them to terrorize other people and to engage in combat with police are the issue here.......

The alleged gun allegedly carried by the murdered Mansur Ball-Bey was allegedly stolen in Rolla. Think about it. How many guys from the St. Louis region - particularly black - are traveling to Rolla, Mo. to steal guns? My hunch would be zero. Come on. They'd be stopped by LEOs before they entered the city's limits. After all, it's Missouri we're talking about here. Not many blacks in Rolla, except perhaps at the university.

Gun lovers and the NRA have helped to create a whole underground (black market) economy with the illicit trade and trafficking of guns in the United States. It's no different than the underground economies dealing with copper/metal, bricks, women, chop shops, tobacco, prescription drugs, illegal drugs, animals - even baseball tickets stolen by St. Louis cops. People - of all backgrounds in America - unfortunately love their guns. Thanks NRA!

The gun culture in this country is literally killing us. You can't even go to the fu*kin' movie theater anymore. Babies are being killed at school. Teens are being picked off in movie theaters. Military personnel are being shot on bases and at recruitment offices. People are being gunned down at their jobs. People are being shot and sometimes killed by highway snipers. Babies are finding guns and are accidently shooting themselves or relatives to death. Some urban, suburban and rural youth are shooting peers to death in neighborhoods and communities and police officers are gunning down people for having no plates on the front of their cars. There's even Americans traveling across the globe to kill wild animals minding their own business.

And many obtained these guns legally - not on the black market. America is creating her own slow demise because of guns.

threeonefour wrote:......not the legal gun owners from whom these guns are stolen (even if some gun owners REALLY ought to be more careful). I suppose victim blaming is fashionable because personal responsibility is anathema to so many people these days.

Gun owners need to take personal responsibility for their guns. You buy them, secure them. Treat the gun(s) as if they are your child(ren). Don't lose them. Keep them safer. If you lose or get the gun stolen or if someone is injured with your weapon(s) you pay a financial penalty and face possible revocation of your license. Such penalties might make you think twice about being a gun owner or cause you take extra precautions.

threeonefour wrote:Those who steal these guns and use them to terrorize others (and engage in combat with police as one of the fleeing suspects apparently did yesterday) are sociopaths with zero regard for human life.

As I offered, just because the gun was "reported" stolen, it doesn't mean the murdered young man was the one who stole the gun in Rolla. That's the story the police and news reports imply. I don't trust the police - anywhere - as far as I can see them. The gun from Rolla likely arrived in St. Louis on the black market, in my opinion, then landed in multiple hands - including his hands (if that's actually the case). I even think there is an intent to flood poor urban communities with black market guns to cause a genocidal impact. My theory on this incident is that more illicit gun trade was occuring when the police came knocking. But there's also a possibility of gun plants because St. Louis police have been known to plant false evidence and guns on people.

Anyway, it's interesting how police and news outlets haven't revealed yet where Ball-Bey was shot on his body.

threeonefour wrote:Of course, we as a society should work to address the lack of opportunity and the strained police-community relations in African-American communities for the betterment of everyone who lives in them. There are some people, however, who cannot and do not want to be saved. They exist in all communities and all demographic groups, but we have to face the facts that they are in disproportionate numbers in places like north St. Louis, North County, and parts of south St. Louis as well.

Everybody wants to be saved. Everybody. Even if a person says out of his or her own mouth they don't want to be. Nobody - black, white, yellow, green or gold - wants to be poor, uneducated, addicted to drugs, homeless, addicted to alcohol and other vices, abused etc. Truth is, they may not know how to save themselves. That is where compassion and understanding comes from others.

The areas you speak of having "disproportionate numbers" are also people in groups that face disproportionate institutional challenges in education, employment, housing, income, law enforcement, sentencing, health care, discrimation etc. so of course it is going to have a ripple effect in other social factors and indicators.

Further, if Dotson wants good police and community relations he and the Slayer must admit they have a problem with their police department. They must make officers just as accountable for their wayward and abusive actions as they expect ordinary citizens to be. How can they expect poor residents in poor and struggling neighborhoods to let go of the "no snitching" street code when the police have their own such as the "Blue Wall"? Why not mandate body cams for all patrol officers - especially for those serving warrants? Why not mandate that name tags with badge #'s stay visible during the full course of duties? If what the officers say is true about Ball-Bey, then all of this new unrest could have been avoided with body cam video.

Again, the police aren't to be trusted - especially in St. Louis. But a video could have shut down skeptics fast or validated what people believed about police misconduct. If you have a tool such as a body cam at your disposal then use it to build trust - if that's what you really want. Trust goes a long way in establishing better police-community relations. Slay and Dotson are lip servicers.

Slay needs to be out in front mandating body cams for officers. Then he needs to be doing all he can to get surveillance cameras in high-crime neighborhood and throughout the city.

threeonefour wrote:I agree with jcity, as sentencing for gun-related crimes should be strict and mandatory, and people with lesser offenses should have their sentences reduced or should be freed depending on the crimes they've committed and the time they've served.

Sounds good, but it also sounds like such a policy could be arbitrary and full of disparities - like so many other sentencing policies in the country. The Denver movie shooter, a white male, killed 12 people and is alive - recently spared the death penalty. Convicted by an all-white jury, a black man in St. Louis County who killed his ex-wife's new boyfriend and stabbed her was put to death two months ago. Until the scales of justice can demonstrate it is truly balanced, I won't trust it - especially in St. Louis. Gun law sentencing could lean heavily on minorities - especially blacks.

threeonefour wrote:Also, we as a society have to be better stewards of resources, because I agree with sirshankalot about the futility of pouring gazillions of dollars into social programs. Today, as a result, we don't just have broken communities, now we have unrest at the drop of a hat as well.

Actually, both of you are wrong. There's been TREMENDOUS disinvestment is social programs and public infrastructure over the last thirty years. Meanwhile there's been increased investment in the prison-industrial complex and its pipeline moreso than social programs. The rich is getting richer while other people are getting poorer. The unrest in cities is a result of America reaping what it has sown.

So whatever happened to the talk of body and dash cams?

^ Mound City, we especially need to break up concentrated poverty.

But there are other things -- probably very complex ones -- that are at play here. And I do find the comparison with Kansas City fascinating.... we had roughly the same overall number of homicides not too long ago but then starting around the second half of 2013 KC started to go down significantly and we started to go up significantly. Why has that been? (However, it looks like KC homicides have begun to increase recently compared to last year after spending the first half of the year pretty static with '14's low numbers.)

Also taking a look at our brothers in Baltimore, I just saw that there have been more homicides there this year to date than in NYC. Crazy how low homicides are in the Big Apple.

^^ MC, the parallels with Baltimore are pretty uncanny from our border state status to our independent city status to our pioneering racial restrictive housing covenants, etc. Today, Baltimore seems to be a bigger, denser Saint Louis with many of the same challenges and opportunities. (It also just got hosed by the GOP Gov and former MODOT Director Pete Rahn for pulling funding for a light rail expansion that had fed approval and redirecting the money to state highways.)

Mound City wrote:Banning handguns doesn't work in Chicago, and it won't work here either. The solution is addressing the root causes (racism, poverty), not the symptom (violent crime).

Chicago doesn't ban handguns.... that has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. They have tougher gun sales laws. etc. but no city can ban them. If we implemented their gun ordinances it might make a bit of a difference, but I doubt much. Same as with Chicago, people would just get whatever is banned in the city from next door.

I agree with you on "stop and frisk..." it is a path fraught with excessive danger.... and we don't have the manpower to make tons of street stops like some big cities. It also is unconstitutional and antagonizing communities further doesn't seem to be what we need; and as NYC has shown it really isn't very effective. In terms of policing, I think a greater emphasis on targeting known dangerous criminals, hiring more homicide detectives and doing whatever we can to improve community relations is a better path.

Mound City wrote:
I'm sorry, but what the hell does this even mean? "Either you believe in personal responsibility or your don't"? What? Personal responsibility isn't like Santa Clause. It's a set of actions that result from instilled values. One's values result from the circumstances in which they've grown up.

I mean, come on.

It's quite simple really.

If you point a gun at a cop, you're going to get shot.
If you loot a store, you're going to be condemned.
If you throw objects at police, you're going to get arrested.

No matter what your social, racial, or economic background, these are known truths of our society. So if you do anything of these things, then you should expect the consequences. Excusing these actions and disregarding the known consequences is, by definition, irresponsible. And that, in turn, undermines the movement's legitimacy.

As I said, it's really quite simple.

And pat, you missed the point of my analogy. In both cases, you're blaming the victim of a crime for being the victim of a crime. And that is, in both cases, wrong.

pat, I'm of the belief that policing tactics don't have a tremendous impact on urban crime but to the extent that we can I think we should do some of the things I mentioned above.... targeting violent offenders and their associates more, etc. (which I believe is part of the partnership plan with feds, etc.) If one thing were to stand out to me, though, if data shows that hiring more homicide detectives results in more arrests/convictions then that would be an area to stress; I don't think anything erodes morale and community more when "getting away with murder" is literal and common. Solving more of these crimes and earlier I think builds confidence in the community and can serve as a deterrent.