^The "victims" in Ferguson have accomplished quite a bit so far. Not all resources require money. Stop debasing them by making them out to be so helpless.
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Stop pretending that refusing to blame the victim is "debasing" them. It's a very tiresome line of argument in the same vein as "liberals are the real racists because they support welfare".pat wrote:^The "victims" in Ferguson have accomplished quite a bit so far. Not all resources require money. Stop debasing them by making them out to be so helpless.
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That's the BIGGEST problem.ttricamo wrote:Did you see the pics from that press conference? It's like people don't care because the murders are concentrated in North City.
The institutional racism and fragmentation of St. Louis is sometimes hard to take.
Instead of anyone looking at the situation as a "them" or "thinning the heard" problem, regional leadership should be examining this more as an "our" problem. The perception of St. Louis - AS A WHOLE - suffers because of the nagging criminal and violent underworld element that exists. Metro St. Louis - in my opinion - stagnates in part because of negative perceptions people have of it. Chesterfield is very much St. Louis whether they think so or not. Didn't a man just shoot his wife at her job in Chesterfield?
I feel there have been some discussions about how to help struggling parts of the region as some organizations and individuals have put their money where their mouths are - the former CEO of Wells Fargo Advisors, for example. And there are countless of examples of community and community leaders helping the community in north St. Louis.
Corporations such as Centene is building a new call center in Ferguson. And the National Urban League is building an empowerment and jobs center on the site of the burned out Quik Trip in Ferguson.
At the end of the day, personal accountability matters FOR EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. Ce'Onta Cretter (rest her soul) seems to have been a bad actor or at least associated with bad actors. That's no one's fault but hers.
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So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
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I really fail to understand how people say lack of jobs and opportunity is constantly cited as the problem specifically for North County. Currently there is Boeing, Emerson, Malinkrodt, Express Scripts, UMSL, and STLCC FloValley along with several other in the Ferguson/Florrissant area. Before you say but those jobs aren't for the people who live there, then i would say fine but there are jobs or potential jobs in supporting functions around those employment centers. Restaurants, day care, fuel, retail, etc. etc.
The problem are structural and cultural but lets not pretend if only there was more employment opportunities those areas would flourish. South County has far few jobs and far fewer issues.
We as a region need to fix the culture of abandonment by those who leave for newer developments to the west, and the culture of victimization by those who stay. Both result is disdain for those on the other side. I don't know how to fix it but that's our problem.
The problem are structural and cultural but lets not pretend if only there was more employment opportunities those areas would flourish. South County has far few jobs and far fewer issues.
We as a region need to fix the culture of abandonment by those who leave for newer developments to the west, and the culture of victimization by those who stay. Both result is disdain for those on the other side. I don't know how to fix it but that's our problem.
Frustrating. Last thing and I'll stop. My point is that we all can do more to fight crime in our city. Clearly that's the case given this year. That effort requires everyone, whether your rich, poor, city, county, black, white, etc. Implying that the poor can't be part of that effort because they don't have the resources is false in my opinion. As Alderman Boyd said, families need to speak up, protest, be more vocal within their own community in regards to the violence. I think insinuating that poorer people can't help is a disservice to them. They can, and we should back them up.Stop pretending that refusing to blame the victim is "debasing" them. It's a very tiresome line of argument in the same vein as "liberals are the real racists because they support welfare".
That's a good start. Hopefully this leads to something more. I saw Slay tweeting about conference or brainstorming session with other mayors and chiefs of other cities. Political leaders move so slowly on this. By the time they get around to doing something, it'll be the end of the year with dozens of more deaths. Need more urgency.
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STLEnginerd wrote:I really fail to understand how people say lack of jobs and opportunity is constantly cited as the problem specifically for North County. Currently there is Boeing, Emerson, Malinkrodt, Express Scripts, UMSL, and STLCC FloValley along with several other in the Ferguson/Florrissant area. Before you say but those jobs aren't for the people who live there, then i would say fine but there are jobs or potential jobs in supporting functions around those employment centers. Restaurants, day care, fuel, retail, etc. etc.
The problem are structural and cultural but lets not pretend if only there was more employment opportunities those areas would flourish. South County has far few jobs and far fewer issues.
We as a region need to fix the culture of abandonment by those who leave for newer developments to the west, and the culture of victimization by those who stay. Both result is disdain for those on the other side. I don't know how to fix it but that's our problem.
When you grow up dodging bullets and eating every other dinner for lack of food, and end up flunking out of high school, you can't work on the line at Boeing with half a high school education.sirshankalot wrote:So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
Research shows that even fetuses in poverty suffer physical impairment due to the stress inflicted from the mother. So sometimes, yeah, poor people can't even recognize right from wrong. Institutional poverty is a breeding ground for sociopaths.
Call me crazy, but I think the problems of society are largely the fault of the people with power who run things, not the people with the least power.
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In my opinion, the ultimate of arrogance is assuming everyone has the same values regardless of the circumstances in which they live and/or have been raised. Your question is unfairly loaded because people who grow up in extreme poverty are likely to understand the value of life differently, and also more likely to miss out on learning certain values that people who grow up under more privileged circumstances take for granted. People who are born in unstable households in dangerous neighborhoods where they feel like they're constantly in danger of dying are generally going to have a different opinion regarding the value of life from someone who's born into a stable, more privileged situation. This is especially true if they're born minority (which, let's be honest, in St. Louis, is most of what we're talking about), which means they have an entire additional host of issues they have to put up with. This different valuation of life often means someone is more willing to put themselves in imminent mortal danger, or to kill another, in order to solve their problems.sirshankalot wrote:So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
If we keep placing the burden of solving institutional racism and its symptoms (extreme poverty and violent crime, specifically) on individuals with no privilege and no power, and we keep framing these issues as problematic choices by some individual bad apples, then these problems will never, ever, ever, ever be solved. Ever.
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But Mark, why would you care about fetuses all the sudden? Your ilk demands that they aren't people and should be aborted if the mother doesn't want to carry to term and the parts of those feti be sold on the black market.....
gotcha...
gotcha...
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Moral constructs...GO! That's a broad brush you're painting with. First it assumes we all have the same moral motivations and then makes the assumption that every law written is to the same moral standard. Whether or not a person believes that there is divine providence in acting moral doesn't really explain adherence to the law; and also leads to the discriminatory Puritanical notion that moral disapproval alone is sufficient grounds to ban something.sirshankalot wrote:So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
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Just saw this video of a drone with a hand gun on it created by an 18 year old and a professor.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/us/gun-drone-connecticut/
Apparently the controller could command the gun on the drone to shoot what the video could see. This will of course become legal in Missouri if Wayne says it will, since our politicians won't risk losing those campaign funds. So five questions -- 1) Should the police have this? 2) How would you tell who is carrying the gun? 3) Could it be used successfully in a self-defense or castle defense? 4) Would this make us safer? Reduce crime since criminals won't know if they are being watched and targetted? 5) Is this legal under the 2nd Amendment? That is, is the controller bearing arms?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/us/gun-drone-connecticut/
Apparently the controller could command the gun on the drone to shoot what the video could see. This will of course become legal in Missouri if Wayne says it will, since our politicians won't risk losing those campaign funds. So five questions -- 1) Should the police have this? 2) How would you tell who is carrying the gun? 3) Could it be used successfully in a self-defense or castle defense? 4) Would this make us safer? Reduce crime since criminals won't know if they are being watched and targetted? 5) Is this legal under the 2nd Amendment? That is, is the controller bearing arms?
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ajwillikers wrote:Moral constructs...GO! That's a broad brush you're painting with. First it assumes we all have the same moral motivations and then makes the assumption that every law written is to the same moral standard. Whether or not a person believes that there is divine providence in acting moral doesn't really explain adherence to the law; and also leads to the discriminatory Puritanical notion that moral disapproval alone is sufficient grounds to ban something.sirshankalot wrote:So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
You really believe that?
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I like what you're laying down and wish an amoral conversation could happen in which the benefits of taking drugs out of illegal markets, illegal market related deaths are weighed against the costs associated with enforcing this prohibition, addiction, treatment, and deaths attributed to legal markets.Mound City wrote:...these problems will never, ever, ever, ever be solved. Ever.
In my anecdotal evidence based opinion, the benefits would outweigh the very high costs and that would put an end to murders that come from the lack of contract law in an illegal market.
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Do you really believe someone who grew up in an unstable household, in extreme poverty, with minimal schooling, in a neighborhood where they constantly face the danger of being gunned down in the streets, is going to value life (read: have the same conception of "right" and "wrong") just the same as someone who didn't?sirshankalot wrote:ajwillikers wrote:Moral constructs...GO! That's a broad brush you're painting with. First it assumes we all have the same moral motivations and then makes the assumption that every law written is to the same moral standard. Whether or not a person believes that there is divine providence in acting moral doesn't really explain adherence to the law; and also leads to the discriminatory Puritanical notion that moral disapproval alone is sufficient grounds to ban something.sirshankalot wrote:So poor people don't have the ability to recognize right from wrong?...that is the ultimate of arrogance.
You really believe that?
Because as far as I'm concerned, to believe that would represent the true ultimate of arrogance.
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Yes I do. I don't want to live in someone else's idea of a moral theocracy enshrined into law.sirshankalot wrote:You really believe that?
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I've already created a mobile app that anonymously intercepts and takes control of gun-toting drones. It's the perfect crime. The cops won't be able to pin a murder rap on you. Not that anyone needs any help getting away with murder in St. Louis but still very useful.gary kreie wrote:Just saw this video of a drone with a hand gun on it created by an 18 year old and a professor.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/us/gun-drone-connecticut/
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Yeah but if they aren't aborted they still turn into people.sirshankalot wrote:But Mark, why would you care about fetuses all the sudden? Your ilk demands that they aren't people and should be aborted if the mother doesn't want to carry to term and the parts of those feti be sold on the black market.....
gotcha...
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Looks like Sirshanks is hoping to be the next Gateway Pundit or Dana Loesch. He needs more references to Obummer" and maybe some sympathy for losers who still love the Confederate flag. Throw in some hero worship of a"Christian" baker who has probably baked wedding cakes fhundreds of previously married couples but now wants the right to deny same sex couples business and you're a shoo in!
Seriously.....St. Louis has one of the SLOWEST growth rates - if not the slowest - for jobs in the whole nation since the recession.STLEnginerd wrote:I really fail to understand how people say lack of jobs and opportunity is constantly cited as the problem specifically for North County. Currently there is Boeing, Emerson, Malinkrodt, Express Scripts, UMSL, and STLCC FloValley along with several other in the Ferguson/Florrissant area. Before you say but those jobs aren't for the people who live there, then i would say fine but there are jobs or potential jobs in supporting functions around those employment centers. Restaurants, day care, fuel, retail, etc. etc.
The problem are structural and cultural but lets not pretend if only there was more employment opportunities those areas would flourish.
I am college-educated with a Masters, but I guarantee you my chances on getting hired at Boeing, Emerson or Mallinckrodt are slim because my degrees are not in those industries. Someone with little-to-no education has an even slimmer chance. Also, let's not pretend that discriminatory practices in hiring (based on race) don't exist anymore. They do. Many blind studies have validated this. There's a saying in the black community that blacks are too often "the last hired and first fired" regardless of title, position, level of education etc.
And there's only so many "supporting function" jobs to go around. This is why job training organizations such as SLATE, the Urban League etc. are vital for people seeking employment.
While South St. Louis County may not exhibit the level of violence seen in other parts of the region, let's not pretend SoCo has "far fewer issues" and no "cultural" challenges. At the end of the day.....a problem is a problem is a problem. Come on, now.STLEnginerd wrote:South County has far few jobs and far fewer issues.
There's a nagging meth and heroin epidemic down there despite attempts by law enforcement to clean it up over the years. Again, it's great (and I celebrate) the level of violence doesn't (and hasn't) reached the epidemic proportions you see in North City or North County, but it isn't exactly the Emerald City down there.
The culture of sprawl and racism are certainly problems in St. Louis. I think the rise of progressive Millennials - in St. Louis and many other cities - are helping to shift that dynamic a bit. As usual, St. Louis is as slow as molasses to adapt to change, but it is changing. It won't be completely "fixed" until those who are racist, biased and/or unwilling to embrace change die off. I can't wait! I think St. Louis (and America) will be better off.STLEnginerd wrote:We as a region need to fix the culture of abandonment by those who leave for newer developments to the west, and the culture of victimization by those who stay. Both result is disdain for those on the other side. I don't know how to fix it but that's our problem.
It doesn't help St. Louis lost thousands upon thousand of blue collar jobs and the ripple effect that caused. Thearch city wrote:Seriously.....St. Louis has one of the SLOWEST growth rates for jobs - if not the slowest - in the whole nation since the recession.STLEnginerd wrote:I really fail to understand how people say lack of jobs and opportunity is constantly cited as the problem specifically for North County. Currently there is Boeing, Emerson, Malinkrodt, Express Scripts, UMSL, and STLCC FloValley along with several other in the Ferguson/Florrissant area. Before you say but those jobs aren't for the people who live there, then i would say fine but there are jobs or potential jobs in supporting functions around those employment centers. Restaurants, day care, fuel, retail, etc. etc.
I am college educated with a Masters, but I guarantee you my chances on getting hired at Boeing, Emerson or Mallinckrodt are slim because my degrees are not in those industries. Someone with little-to-no education has an even slimmer chance. Also, let's not pretend that discriminatory practices in hiring based on race don't exist anymore. It does. Many blind studies have validated this. There's a saying in the black community that blacks are too often "the last hired and first fired" regardless of title, position, level of education etc. And there's only so many "supporting function" jobs to go around.
This is why organizations such as SLATE, the Urban League etc. are vital for people seeking employment.
While South St. Louis County may not exhibit the level of violence seen in other parts of the region, let's not pretend SoCo has "far fewer issues" and no "cultural" challenges. At the end of the day.....a problem is a problem is a problem. Come on, now.STLEnginerd wrote:The problem are structural and cultural but lets not pretend if only there was more employment opportunities those areas would flourish. South County has far few jobs and far fewer issues.
There's a nagging meth and heroin epidemic down there despite attempts by law enforcement to clean it up over the years. Again, it's great (and I celebrate) that the level of violence doesn't (and hasn't) reached epidemic proportions you see in North City or North County, it isn't exactly the Emerald City down there.
The culture of sprawl and racism are certainly problems in St. Louis. I think the rise of progressive Millennials - in St. Louis and many other cities - are helping to shift that dynamic a bit. As usual, St. Louis is as slow as molasses to adapt to change, but it is changing. It won't be completely "fixed" until those who are racist, biased and/or unwilling to embrace change die off. I can't wait! I think St. Louis (and America) will be better off.STLEnginerd wrote:We as a region need to fix the culture of abandonment by those who leave for newer developments to the west, and the culture of victimization by those who stay. Both result is disdain for those on the other side. I don't know how to fix it but that's our problem.
-closing of the two Chrysler van and truck plants in Fenton
-closing of the Ford Explorer plant in Hazelwood
-all their corresponding suppliers
-the bleeding off of jobs at Boeing
All those have had a huge negative effect on the region and especially North County.
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^ Pittsburgh has the same job loss and collapse of industry. The difference is they invested in transitioning their economy and had better leadership. They didn't allow the same stale industries to buy them off and dictate economic policy like STL did. Sometime I wonder if STL and the State of MO is crossing their fingers that manufacturing jobs come back. Heck we have virtually no alt energy jobs because of the strangle hold the coal industry has on the city and state. Move on.
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Probably also helps that Pittsburgh has a much smaller percentage (about 1/4 vs. 1/2 in St. Louis) of blacks, meaning a much smaller percentage of their population has faced marginalization, segregation, etc. which has led to extreme poverty and violent crime.downtown2007 wrote:^ Pittsburgh has the same job loss and collapse of industry. The difference is they invested in transitioning their economy and had better leadership. They didn't allow the same stale industries to buy them off and dictate economic policy like STL did. Sometime I wonder if STL and the State of MO is crossing their fingers that manufacturing jobs come back. Heck we have virtually no alt energy jobs because of the strangle hold the coal industry has on the city and state. Move on.
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There was recent study that showed relatively no difference between baby boomers and millenials on almost every topic (pretty much everyone across the board has changed views on gay marriage). It was like 1-3% points difference on almost everything. Negligible.arch city wrote: The culture of sprawl and racism are certainly problems in St. Louis. I think the rise of progressive Millennials - in St. Louis and many other cities - are helping to shift that dynamic a bit. As usual, St. Louis is as slow as molasses to adapt to change, but it is changing. It won't be completely "fixed" until those who are racist, biased and/or unwilling to embrace change die off. I can't wait! I think St. Louis (and America) will be better off.
I know there are some that "can't wait" for this impending utopia that millennials are ushering in, but I wouldn't start sucking each other's d*cks just yet, boys. We're 10+ years into the millennial generations usefulness and many things have stayed the same or gotten worse (obviously not their fault in any way, shape or form, of course). And hey look! Millennials can commit a record breaking number of violent acts and homicides just like Generation X did! Are these the people that are here to save us all or do not they not count as actual millennials because they did something bad? Do they still get a trophy? We are creating monsters not the ***** people who are going to save the world. In reality, they are just like anyone else now or then. Just more distracted. And they're totally fine and average just like everyone else, nothing more and nothing less.