Crime Thread

jsbru · PostJan 15, 2015#48762015-01-15T17:10+00:00

I'll be the first to admit that criminal law is enforced in a systemically disparate fashion that is disproportionately harsh on black offenders and disproportionately lenient toward perpetrators where the victim is black (murderers of whites get a longer sentence than murderers of blacks). The statistics on this are so stark that it doesn't even take any political courage to admit it.

I'd consider myself pretty left-wing myself--along the lines of a democratic socialist. But the left in the US really jumps the shark on this issue when any time a cop shoots someone, they're automatically guilty. Each of these shootings are completely different--some totally unjustified, some totally justified, and some in between or it's hard to tell. There has to be some middle ground where police are held to account for racially biased policing, but at the same time are allowed to defend themselves when they are dealing with the very real threat of violent criminals that endanger the life of police officers, and the life, liberty, and property of the innocent citizens that live in overwhelmingly liberal, diverse, tolerant areas. But this middle-ground message has been completely drowned out by the ideologues and the typically superficial media coverage of this issue.

PostJan 15, 2015#48772015-01-15T17:15+00:00

And while even criminals should be treated with respect, due process, etc., that doesn't mean their rights trump the rights of the people who they may kill, maim, rape, rob, etc. It's a pretty basic concept of liberty--that your own rights are contingent upon you not violating the rights of others. Once you do that, you give up your right to be a free man. And some people are beyond rehabilitation. They are just bad. It might not be 100% their fault, they might have been raised in poverty, had abusive/negligent/absent parents, or have drug problems. But that doesn't negate the fact that they're a threat to the liberty of others. Some people need to be locked up for a very long time.

roger wyoming II · PostJan 15, 2015#48782015-01-15T17:23+00:00

jsbru wrote: But this middle-ground message has been completely drowned out by the ideologues and the typically superficial media coverage of this issue.

the ideologues are on both sides which makes rational discussion and reaching effective solutions difficult.

erina · PostJan 15, 2015#48792015-01-15T17:26+00:00

There's a Citizens on Patrol training at Dojo Pizza 4601 Morganford Mon Feb 9th 7pm as part of the Neighborhood Ownership Model.

http://www.circuitattorney.org/CitizensOnPatrol.aspx

jsbru · PostJan 15, 2015#48802015-01-15T17:32+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:
jsbru wrote: But this middle-ground message has been completely drowned out by the ideologues and the typically superficial media coverage of this issue.
the ideologues are on both sides which makes rational discussion and reaching effective solutions difficult.

Yeah, I didn't mean to gloss over the ideologues on the right, which I think is actually far more widespread. The solution is obviously not to turn on Bill O'Reilly, get on some perceived moral soapbox, and turn each of these incidents into an excuse to condemn black people and spread racial animosity.

PostJan 15, 2015#48812015-01-15T17:41+00:00

Jail time isn't going to deter people who, because of our economic system, have pretty much nothing to lose in the first place. Most psychological research shows that positive reinforcement is a MUCH better motivator than the threat of punishment. Punishment, and the threat thereof, mostly serves to create animosity between authority and those punished. It might scare a few people away from making bad decisions, but when you grow up having nothing to lose in the first place, it's not going to have that much of a deterrent effect. How is jail all that much worse from sitting around all day unemployed in a violent neighborhood with nothing to do?

We're better off creating more appealing rewards for good behavior than we are increasing the severity of punishment. But when you grow up in an environment where the people who work hard all their life make close to minimum wage and get their retirements/pensions/home equity robbed from them by our screwed up financial system, and their jobs shipped overseas by countries that allow slave labor, people see this, react to it, and figure it's not worth it to even try.

PostJan 15, 2015#48822015-01-15T17:42+00:00

In other words, how are you going to motivate someone to play by the rules of the system when the system is actually their enemy, their exploiter?

DogtownBnR · PostJan 15, 2015#48832015-01-15T18:10+00:00

Not that this is new, but it seems as if Dotson is blaming the court system. While I think the system in general is broken, the court system is a significant problem.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /21802357/

roger wyoming II · PostJan 15, 2015#48842015-01-15T18:19+00:00

^ I see a frustrated chief who doesn't know what to do.... the guy who shot and killed his acquaintance this morning most likely had a pretty good general understanding that if you murder someone you will be jailed for a long, long time if you are caught. But these are crimes of passion and high capital punishment states like Missouri and Texas still have high murder rates; often among the highest.

Northside Neighbor · PostJan 15, 2015#48852015-01-15T18:46+00:00

Kansas City is seeing a drop in homicide. They have this program there which we do not have here:

http://kansascitynova.org/aboutus.html

roger wyoming II · PostJan 15, 2015#48862015-01-15T18:58+00:00

^ looks like a good cop, bad cop program worth looking into. I knew Boston had cited early interventions as a reason for their success as well.

arch city · PostJan 15, 2015#48872015-01-15T19:04+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I see a frustrated chief who doesn't know what to do.... the guy who shot and killed his acquaintance this morning most likely had a pretty good general understanding that if you murder someone you will be jailed for a long, long time if you are caught. But these are crimes of passion and high capital punishment states like Missouri and Texas still have high murder rates; often among the highest.

I agree. Very, very true.

I am totally against the death penalty (and I donate to Amnesty International + have all of the trinkets to prove it). The death penalty isn't a crime/murder deterrent. Nonetheless, Missouri, Texas and other states tend to keep the death penalty around, it seems, because of people like the Drury Inn shooter/murderer. Fuking senseless. Families forever changed and scarred. Why in the hell are you robbing anywhere - let alone a fukin' hotel. I suspect the shooter is a druggie who needed quick fix money. My prayers go out to all the victims.

St. Louis needs an exorcism. Seriously.......clergy in St. Louis needs to hold street corner exorcisms/vigils (with Holy Water and all) throughout the city and in every zip code.

Call me crazy, but I'm convinced there are evil spirits - probably even ancient ones - that have cursed St. Louis. They influence wrong-doing, create bad luck and hatred/confusion. For many reasons, the spirits - both good and bad - don't seem to be at rest in St. Louis. They need permission or guidance to rest (ie. be at peace).

Again, call me crazy if you desire because I don't care.

DogtownBnR · PostJan 15, 2015#48882015-01-15T19:06+00:00

^You might just be on to something. Maybe we can call that lady from the "Dead Files" on Travel Channel.

jcity · PostJan 15, 2015#48892015-01-15T21:09+00:00

Again, time for the toughest sentencing in the entire country! Who's with me?

Also, Garner in NY is the only legit media story I've seen that I'd oppose the cops position. All others seemed justified to me. My little opinion.

moorlander · PostJan 15, 2015#48902015-01-15T21:20+00:00

While the folks at City Hall are trying to deal with 6 homicides last night, the building is on lockdown because of this....siiiiigh

Small group protests proposal to hire 160 more St. Louis police officers
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... cbc6a.html

MarkHaversham · PostJan 15, 2015#48912015-01-15T21:39+00:00

jcity wrote:Again, time for the toughest sentencing in the entire country! Who's with me?

Also, Garner in NY is the only legit media story I've seen that I'd oppose the cops position. All others seemed justified to me. My little opinion.

That drive-by the cops performed on the Cleveland kid was even more blatant, I think.

moorlander · PostJan 15, 2015#48922015-01-15T21:58+00:00

The video I saw showed the kid walking around pointing a gun at people. Note to self.

beer city · PostJan 15, 2015#48932015-01-15T22:13+00:00

Good press conf with Dodson and Slay - 2 of these were domestic disputes - How do you stop that? Its the rare (although seemingly getting more frequent) random crap that scares the hell out people

Suspects in custody for 3 of the murders

zink · PostJan 15, 2015#48942015-01-15T22:28+00:00

arch city wrote:
St. Louis needs an exorcism. Seriously........

No, I think it needs a mass vasectomy.

MarkHaversham · PostJan 15, 2015#48952015-01-15T22:35+00:00

moorlander wrote:The video I saw showed the kid walking around pointing a gun at people. Note to self.

12 year old kids are stupid. But we can't pretend the police made any effort whatsoever to de-escalate the situation, even though they should have been informed it was probably not a real gun. They just rolled up and murdered a 12-year-old with no hesitation (and no consequences).

moorlander · PostJan 15, 2015#48962015-01-15T23:16+00:00

"Probably not a real gun." How would the police know that?

danryan1 · PostJan 16, 2015#48972015-01-16T00:22+00:00

moorlander wrote:"Probably not a real gun." How would the police know that?

Have you seen the video? The cops gunned down the kid within seconds of arriving. It hands down the most egregious of all the recent police killings. Even in the Eric Garner case you could argue that the cops, while criminally negligent, probably didn't mean to kill the guy. Is it too much to expect the police not to gun down unarmed children who aren't even doing anything illegal?

It's ***** indefensible.

arch city · PostJan 16, 2015#48982015-01-16T00:27+00:00

moorlander wrote:"Probably not a real gun." How would the police know that?

The police shot that boy in a half second. Their stupid asses drove right up to him and murdered him in less than a second. One of the officer's you are defending was deemed unfit to be a police officer in New York and by a suburban force in Cleveland.

Now we know why. He is craycray.

Now watch he gets hired by the St. Louis Police Department.

PostJan 16, 2015#48992015-01-16T00:30+00:00

moorlander wrote:The video I saw showed the kid walking around pointing a gun at people. Note to self.

Who did you see him pointing the TOY gun towards? Please direct me to that video. The video I saw he was not pointing at anyone.

When police arrived he was sitting down on a park bench and before that he was making snowballs.

The caller to CPD said he was pointing a gun - and even said he believed it could be a toy gun, but wasn't sure if it was a real or fake gun.

Don't be that insensitive and heartless. It was a 12-year old boy.

Ebsy · PostJan 16, 2015#49002015-01-16T01:13+00:00

The shooting at the Drury Inn & Suites is rough. Just a tragedy.

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