urbanSTL

Good posts. I certainly understand the logical reasons for why police on civilian violence gets the stronger reaction, I just wish as a society we were more equally outraged by all violence.

But aside from that, where do we go from here?

The race relation issues largely come down to a socio-economic divide. On the whole I don't believe St. Louisans are racist, but the system we've allowed to developed IS, and that's where this blow up has it's roots.

And now we HAVE to find a way past that. Can this terribleness be the impetus for meaningful change?

If you're not demanding radical progressive measures to pump economic activity into poor areas, you're just blowing air around.

Redbrickcity wrote:So is this the final nail in north county

Some of this thread, especially the quoted text above, is spot on identical with post dispatch comments from countians in regards to areas of the city. The similarity is truly a lesson in St Louis sociology.

Just as you may feel the need to explain to post dispatch commenters that the city is safe, let me take this opportunity to tell you about my morning in North County: woke up, packed wife and kids off to school, poured a coffee, grabbed my WSJ off my manicured lawn, waived to several neighbors (both black and white), drove to my office. Yep. Totally normal and safe.

There can be no "final nail in the coffin" for one part of the city. We're all in this boat together. Odd how quickly the tune can change. In the national media, this event happened in St Louis. It is only in small minded St Louis that we make ourselves feel better by convincing ourselves that this event happened "up there" and "to those people". Incredibly fascinating.

^ Yep.

There's a direct relations to the problems much of North County faces and the problems North City has faced for a long time. And the solution has to be related as well.

Ferguson Mayor blaming the looting on people from Jennings, Dellwood and North City...

^ Oy vey.

Laura Hettiger KMOV ‏@LauraKHettiger 1h
#BREAKING #Ferguson Chief confident he knows who caused riots overnight. If they show up at 10am protest, they will be arrested @kmov

#BREAKING #Ferguson Mayor says looters were from Jennings, Dellwood and #STL City @kmov


stevegiegerich ‏@stevegiegerich 1m

Sam's mgr Mike Jaacob reviewed TV footage of looters - "...Not my customers, they were not from our community" #FergusonShooting @stltoday

Perviously I had seen tweets saying if anyone showed up to protest they'd be arrested. Was the Mayor just referring to the people they believe caused the riots?

I think they have walked back on the statement and now its anyone that's not peaceful at the protest will be arrested.

dbInSouthCity wrote:Ferguson Mayor blaming the looting on people from Jennings, Dellwood and North City...

Of course. More of the small-mindedness. I found it incredibly telling that St. Louis County Police hosted the news conference yesterday as the Ferguson police chief sat there in silence, doe-eyed, obviously contemplating how far over his head he is with this situation.

When an event such as this occurs, a situation that obviously transcends the meaningless divides we put on this whole region, our provincial-ness really seems completely asinine. Ferguson, MO., population 28,000 (about the size of the Dutchtown neighborhood) has its own governing body, police infrastructure, and is one of the few county munis that still has its own fire district, that its citizens pay for, has proven how ineffective the "municipal charade" really is in handling actual issues. Equally as ridiculous is an area (Chesterfield) that wants to "secede" from the county because it wants "its own" tax revenue, or a city and county that are divided. Its always the same fundamental issue that plays out time and time again. Meanwhile, you have a person actually campaign for county executive under the auspice of "stop the merger". And of course, the reality is we cannot approach and fix the issues that drove this horrible situation (endemic racism) until we fix the one of the issues the set stage for these tragic events (unnecessary municipal divide, inefficient use of tax monies that could actually help lower income areas, etc.).

This may not be a popular sentiment but I have a huge issue with Sen. Nasheed's and Antonio French's response to the incident. Both demonstrated a lack of leadership in this tenuous situation and instead of promoting peaceful demonstration incited the crowds through their actions and social media. There should be more accountability from our elected officials.

From Sen Nahseed's twitter account in response to the press conference yesterday: "Did I just hear him say administrative leave with pay? That killer should be fired and indicted for murder." I can't even begin to explain what is wrong with a public official making that statement.

I currently have no position on this incident. We don't know enough and not living in that area I have no idea what young Mr. Brown and the officer deal with in that neighborhood on a day to day basis. It is obtuse to think that didn't play a role in either of their actions. All I know is a young man has died way too young as we see all too often in our region.

the other observation I'll make is, "wow." Public protest can surely rattle the leadership structure in STL very quickly. People who care about change for other issues should take note.

Nahsheed and French were using this as a vehicle for their own agenda, nothing more, nothing less. French was acting like a reporter during the whole event...so odd.

French used to be a reporter. I didn't find his response bad, he simply was reporting. Whether that's odd given his current role as an Alderman in the city of St. Louis, is up for you to decide, but I thought he has been surprisingly objective in his coverage of this issue.

I respect French's passion but often find myself disagreeing with him and feeling he is race baiting. But in this situation, when that would have been incredibly easy to do, I don't think he has.

I did not see Sen. Nahseed's tweet, but the quote above is pretty brutal.

ttricamo wrote: When an event such as this occurs, a situation that obviously transcends the meaningless divides we put on this whole region, our provincial-ness really seems completely asinine. Ferguson, MO., population 28,000 (about the size of the Dutchtown neighborhood) has its own governing body, police infrastructure, and is one of the few county munis that still has its own fire district, that its citizens pay for, has proven how ineffective the "municipal charade" really is in handling actual issues.

I'm all for regionalism and eliminating undersized municipalities, but 28k doesn't seem like an unreasonable number for a municipality. It's somewhere above the 95th percentile in population compared to other MO municipalities. It's well above the HOA level.

Cut it off at 10K- the ones that dont make the cut adjust their boarders to the nearest that does.
Florissant 51,812
Chesterfield 46,635
University City 37,428
Oakville 35,309
Wildwood 32,884
Ballwin 31,283
Mehlville 28,822
Kirkwood 27,324
Hazelwood 26,206
Maryland Heights 25,756
Webster Groves 23,230
Ferguson 22,406
Spanish Lake 21,337
Affton 20,535
Manchester 19,161
Lemay 17,215 4.5
Overland 16,838
Concord 16,689
Creve Coeur 16,500
Clayton 16,061
Bridgeton 15,550
Jennings 15,469
St. Ann 13,607
Crestwood 11,863
Bellefontaine Neighbors11,271
Town and Country 10,894
Berkeley 10,063

Ebsy wrote:The reason that there is not as much outrage when there is black on black crime vs. police brutality is that there is no entity at which to direct rage. In this case, the target is the police, and in extension, the law, which has failed this community so totally. This event is going to be disected in the months to come, and it is not going to reflect well on St. Louis.

That explanation makes perfect sense. As I said before, I didn’t mean to obfuscate the real issue at hand. It’s just frustrating for me to see the violence that occurs in our region almost every day. So much of it is swept under the rug or merely forgotten altogether. After all, there is likely to be more violence in the next news cycle. Although no one in the right mind could condone such a violent reaction to law enforcement, it is clear that with the police, there is a single entity to which people direct their anger, thus the vocal response. It’s just a shame that a peaceful vigil, which was the first step toward the larger healing process, quickly became overshadowed by these opportunistic looters.

arch city wrote:Ultimately, metro St. Louis is reaping what it has sewn. I said before and I'll say it again.......IT IS A CESSPOOL for racial animus and intolerance. The top has blown off the lid and METRO leadership has done a piss-poor job to address the racial animus and divide. In Houston, improved race relations were a priority and now it is one of the fastest growing cities in the U.S. with THE fastest growing economy.

I don't feel sorry for the St. Louis region - at all. If St. Louis loses businesses and corporations as a result of all of this - so be it. If the region gets a "black-eye" as a result of this - so be it. St. Louis - black, white or whatever - get your sh*t together.

Despite some forward-movement, the leadership, politics and social fabric of the region are archaic and non-progressive. And personally, it's sad to say, because I have been inching closer and closer to this for a while, but I am very close to giving up hope on the region. I have never understood how some expats - both black and white - could express their desire to never move back to St. Louis.

Now I am beginning to understand.

I hate to say it, but I am beginning to understand this as well. In recent years, I have spent a fair amount of time in Southern cities, and I daresay that racial relations are much better in many places- Houston included- than they are in St. Louis and similar major cities to the north and east. Of course, that’s just my anecdotal observation; others’ mileage may vary. Lest I get sidetracked by discussing other cities, however, let’s just say that I agree, the failure of our civic leaders to address race relations adequately has led us to this unfortunate boiling point.

I think some of the reason black people feel so frustrated and persecuted by cops is all the little municipalities there are in North County. Imagine driving Natural Bridge westbound from the city limits to get to the UMSL area. You pass through: Pine Lawn, Velda Village Hills, Beverly Hills, Normandy, Bel Nor: all in about a 2 or 2 1/2 mile drive with all of their cops trying to make quotas.

That’s actually a very good point in my opinion, one that I hope doesn’t lost in this discussion. How many of these communities in the Normandy area would exist without aggressive speed limit enforcement on their major corridors? Also, while racial profiling is a well-documented problem in Greater St. Louis and many other places, it would be interesting to see recent information as it pertains to Ferguson and surrounding communities, like Jennings, Dellwood, and all of these hamlets in the Normandy area. This area is heavily patrolled, and my guess is that something as minor as a license plate light that’s out or failing to signal a lane change is all it takes to attract attention from law enforcement. Add ‘driving while black’ to the mix, and it’s no wonder that African-Americans in the area might feel persecuted by police.

There can be no "final nail in the coffin" for one part of the city. We're all in this boat together. Odd how quickly the tune can change. In the national media, this event happened in St Louis. It is only in small minded St Louis that we make ourselves feel better by convincing ourselves that this event happened "up there" and "to those people". Incredibly fascinating.

This is exactly what is wrong with our area. We convince ourselves that the majority of the violence happens to “those people who live up there” and sweep it under the rug as a community. We come together for sporting events and community festivals, but sadly, not much else.

This may not be a popular sentiment but I have a huge issue with Sen. Nasheed's and Antonio French's response to the incident. Both demonstrated a lack of leadership in this tenuous situation and instead of promoting peaceful demonstration incited the crowds through their actions and social media. There should be more accountability from our elected officials.

I agree with you. I have to admit that I didn’t see Senator Nasheed’s comments, but the tweet quoted above speaks for itself. Alderman French’s actions seem similarly unfortunate and opportunistic. I heard him say A LOT on the news; however, I never heard him condemn the violence or call for an end to it. As a civic leader, that’s the least he could have done in my opinion.

Also, although this is not the most important consideration as we as a community address this issue, I wonder what this incident means for St. Louis' image as a whole. As ttricamo correctly points out, this is seen in the international media as a St. Louis issue, not a Ferguson issue, or an issue of Dellwood and North City residents looting in Ferguson as Ferguson leaders want to believe. Does an incident of this magnitude have a negative impact on tourism, conventions, and our ability to attract businesses? Like I said, it's not the most important question at the moment. However, I feel like one way or another, this is going to have a major impact on our community for a long time to come. I just hope that in time we can move forward in a positive way.

So sad for Ferguson and the folks who live there. The town transitioned slowly over the last 40 years from primarily white middle class to current mix of 2/3 African American, and 1/3 white. No white flight -- just people retiring or dieing of old age and selling to young families from the city looking for nice suburban houses. Recent comeback included great microbrewery, wine tasting place, and franchise stores.

Since African Americans make up the majority of the citizens in Ferguson, not sure why that wasn't reflected more in the administration and police force. Any racist whites would likely have moved out years ago, so I assume those living there now are progressive and open-minded. But I guess you get the government you vote for.

Now those homes in Ferguson are probably worth about $0, and won't come back to previous levels for a decade. And I imagine St. Louis Metro has lost a couple of billion in property values over the next few years due to this weekend's events. By contrast, I rode the moonlight ramble long route Saturday night and Sunday morning through South St. Louis for the first time. I was surprised to see some spectators out on the street at 1 AM and high-fived a few folks of all races cheering us on along South Jefferson.

gary kreie wrote: Now those homes in Ferguson are probably worth about $0, and won't come back to previous levels for a decade. And I imagine St. Louis Metro has lost a couple of billion in property values over the next few years due to this weekend's events.

That seems a little dramatic for a single event, however sizable. How much property value was lost due to the LA or London riots?

roger wyoming II wrote:Not a native so I'll ask.... anyone recall the last major rioting/looting incident in the region? Seems to me that historically this type of action has been relatively rare compared to other larger cities with similar tensions. I could be wrong about that, but if it is true I wonder what the reasons are for it.

There was a riot after MLK was killed.

The largest riot was probably in 1917, when a group of 3000 white people attacked and killed dozens of blacks and burnt down hundreds of homes in East St. Louis.

Ferguson PD to release the name of the officer involved by noon tomorrow, I'm guessing to give him time to find another place to live for a while