urbanSTL

dmmonty1 wrote:Can anyone offer any insight on WHY our murder rate is so much higher than demographically similar cities like, say, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh?

There are several reasons I'll try to explain a few.

Because STL was in a different league than those cities about 50 years ago when inner cities started to decay.

Source : Wikipedia
Cincy 1960 population 503,998
Pittsburgh 1960 population 604,332
STL 1960 Population 750,026

Before 1960, STL city had more than 800,000 people for thirty years straight (amazing).

Heroin began to take over American inner cities during the late 1960s (watch the film "Dead Presidents"). Now you have broken homes with crime starting to get of hand and you know about the population moving out. St. Louis and East St. Louis had so many empty buildings by the late 70's, "Escape From New York" was filmed here.

Then crack happened and nothing was the same. The city was truly out of control, St. Louis' level of crime in 1994 makes the last 20 years seem peaceful. Now those kid's whose parents used drugs are now coming of age with crack damaging them, some have mental problems, although others are criminals.

gary kreie wrote:I would like to see a new TV series where a young inner city lawyer or judge convinces gang members and druggies to take their enemies to civil court to get their grievances aired and possibly get some justice monetarily, rather than just shooting them.

Is it even possible to have an approachable court system that only attempts to settle perceived injustices among folks who may otherwise be less than model citizens, just to try to prevent them from resorting to shootings to get their justice?

Syndicate B is infringing on the pharma sales monopoly that syndicate A maintains on the latter's home turf. Instead of resorting to violence to scare off their upstart rival, syndicate A sets an appointment with a mediator to peacefully resolve the dispute. They end up meeting, enjoy tea and crumpets together, and leave amicably after forging an acceptable agreement.

Ok, maybe not.

roger wyoming II wrote:

dmmonty1 wrote:Can anyone offer any insight on WHY our murder rate is so much higher than demographically similar cities like, say, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh?

I think part of it has to do with the fact that neither city had quite the same scale of abandonment of such a large section of the city than ours did.... they've been relatively more stable while we rose higher and fell harder. Also, I wonder to what extent topography has to do with some of Pittsburgh's indicators; e.g. I think sprawl and having second and third downtowns/office clusters, etc. is a bit harder.

I'm interested in learning more about this now. Until someone here brought up the comparison of murder stats to other similar cities, I just assumed the City was on par with our peer central cities once you delved into the numbers and accounted for the confusion created by the frozen City boundaries. Now that I see that other similar cities DON'T have the same level of murder rates, it makes me want to know why.

The pace and scale of our population loss and abandonment seems to be like it could be a strong factor, but I wonder if there are other dynamics also at work. Has St. Louis always had a higher murder rate than our peers, going back even a hundred years or so? I've been learning a little bit lately about organized crime and gangs in St. Louis going back to early and mid-20th century. This city has always been a brutal place and has seen incredible violence- to the point where I can understand more why so many people left in the latter half of the century when opportunities opened up. I know that all older cities have dealt with crime and violence, but I wonder if ours has always been greater to an extent. It might be that violence, organized crime, and the police and community response have been ingrained to a unique local "flavor" here, which we are still building upon in our systems we've carried.

I wonder if our crime rates across the board are higher than Cincy and Pittsburgh or if it's only in murders. If it's limited to our murder rate, maybe there are targeted adjustments and St. Louis-specific strategies we can make to intervene in and reduce gang-related violence (if that's where the uptick in murders is coming from, for example).

I wonder if our history of not having local control of our police force has kept us from being able to make these finely-tuned adjustments that perhaps only locals could carry out with the maximum benefit.

I wish I had time to look into all of this, but I'm wondering if anyone has insight into these questions or more questions themselves.

DannyJ wrote:

roger wyoming II wrote:

dmmonty1 wrote:Can anyone offer any insight on WHY our murder rate is so much higher than demographically similar cities like, say, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh?

I think part of it has to do with the fact that neither city had quite the same scale of abandonment of such a large section of the city than ours did.... they've been relatively more stable while we rose higher and fell harder. Also, I wonder to what extent topography has to do with some of Pittsburgh's indicators; e.g. I think sprawl and having second and third downtowns/office clusters, etc. is a bit harder.

I'm interested in learning more about this now. Until someone here brought up the comparison of murder stats to other similar cities, I just assumed the City was on par with our peer central cities once you delved into the numbers and accounted for the confusion created by the frozen City boundaries. Now that I see that other similar cities DON'T have the same level of murder rates, it makes me want to know why.

The pace and scale of our population loss and abandonment seems to be like it could be a strong factor, but I wonder if there are other dynamics also at work. Has St. Louis always had a higher murder rate than our peers, going back even a hundred years or so? I've been learning a little bit lately about organized crime and gangs in St. Louis going back to early and mid-20th century. This city has always been a brutal place and has seen incredible violence- to the point where I can understand more why so many people left in the latter half of the century when opportunities opened up. I know that all older cities have dealt with crime and violence, but I wonder if ours has always been greater to an extent. It might be that violence, organized crime, and the police and community response have been ingrained to a unique local "flavor" here, which we are still building upon in our systems we've carried.

I wonder if our crime rates across the board are higher than Cincy and Pittsburgh or if it's only in murders. If it's limited to our murder rate, maybe there are targeted adjustments and St. Louis-specific strategies we can make to intervene in and reduce gang-related violence (if that's where the uptick in murders is coming from, for example).

I wonder if our history of not having local control of our police force has kept us from being able to make these finely-tuned adjustments that perhaps only locals could carry out with the maximum benefit.

I wish I had time to look into all of this, but I'm wondering if anyone has insight into these questions or more questions themselves.

It's likely explained by the sheer concentration and extent of poverty that we have. In peer cities, I'm venturing that it's more diffuse.

innov8ion wrote:It's likely explained by the sheer concentration and extent of poverty that we have. In peer cities, I'm venturing that it's more diffuse.

I think that is a good explanation for part of the reason for why the violent crime rate is high in St. Louis. But it's not the whole story. Milwaukee and Cleveland are also similar demographically to St. Louis City, except that they have had slightly greater concentrations of poverty within their central cities and lower overall murder rates for the past 30 years. Perhaps at the more micro-level, we have higher concentrations of poverty with higher murder rates within smaller geographic units within our central city. It's probably true. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there are deeper things to explore and understand. We do have high poverty, but so do other central cites at sometimes higher rates than us in their central cities, yet we have more violent crime.

Are people in this thread personally fearful of crime?

I travel all over this city in all kinds of neighborhoods. I've heard gunshots; our house was hit once with a gunshot; I've had a friend hit in a crossfire and nearly killed; I've had our car stolen from in front of our house; I've seen two dead bodies laying in the street from gunshots.

But I'm not afraid of crime. It doesn't really bother me at all. It's sort of like cancer or heart disease. It's out there, but I'm not gonna spend a lot of my time thinking about it.

I don't get the fascination. Frankly, I find it kind of boring and frustrating so much time is spent on it.

I get why news outlets and politicians spend a lot of time on it. That's their world. They HAVE to deal with it. But at the neighbor to neighbor level, I think it's enough to make you crazy.

^ yea so it looks like all of those happened in the counties. Did they forget to report the city?

Northside Neighbor wrote:Are people in this thread personally fearful of crime?

For the most part, I am not personally fearful of being a victim of violent crime on a day-to-day basis. My neighborhood is largely safe from violent crime and most murders in the City involve African American victims and assailants (I am white). However, I think there is a general form of fear behind my shifting attitudes toward greater punishment - killing an innocent person over a cellphone is sub-human behavior and the assailant should be treated accordingly. Socioeconomic status or poverty should not be an excuse or a mitigating factor - some things are just plain wrong.

I am annoyed at property crime, having had my car broken into several times and stolen once.

I am fearful that crime - both the perception that the entire City is awash in violent crime and the real annoyances of being subjected to petty property crimes at a rate higher than our suburban neighbors - will hold the City back from a more thorough revitalization.

Northside Neighbor wrote:Are people in this thread personally fearful of crime?

Probably but not me. Never been effected by crime. Never witnessed a crime. Never, to my knowledge, had friends or family overly effected by crime.

Maybe I'm naive or wrong but i feel the only reason the crime stats have gown down is because the overall city population continues to shrink. A city of 300,000 should only average about 17-20 not 100 yearly thats absurd! I also believe there are many people who are scared of crime particularly in the county also do you think people in the city should have to put up with such nuisance criminals not only weekly but daily? Do you think they the people of the city deserve the same quality of life just as many in so called safer cities?..All i want is a cleaner safer happy progressive growing aggressive beautiful 1st tier St.Louis not a beat down down trodden neglected un safe shrinking depressed unorganized status quo less is best we're flyover 3rd tier St.Louis ..
Sorry if i sound harsh but i honestly believe St.Louis deserves so much better just my opinion

And Yes I'm a bit fearful of crime and am simply tired of hearing about it talking about it and asking people on a thread if their fearful of crime sadly accepts it just my opinion. I don't tolerate it whether you're rich or poor and if anyone likes it or is comfortable with it then move to Detroit not to bash the great people of Detroit.. All I'm saying is i think most of St.Louis has had enough of it if we're ever going to attract and compete with other cities crime needs to be addressed.. It's embarrassing when Paris, France warns its own residents about taking a trip to St.Louis. Maybe you don't care but i care!

This thread has over 200 pages.

Ballpark Village has about 94 pages.

Nothing else even comes close.

Someone's thinking a lot about crime!

Northside Neighbor wrote:This thread has over 200 pages.

Ballpark Village has about 94 pages.

Nothing else even comes close.

Someone's thinking a lot about crime!

To be fair, crime has existed a bit longer than Ballpark Village...

Correction: The newest ballpark village thread has 94 and was started in 2011. There were threads before the newest one. Going back to the dinosaurs.

I think the reason many of us care about crime isn't because we specifically fear it on a day to day basis. It's because we know other people who might otherwise inhabit the city fear it, often times even our friends and family.

^exactly.

jstriebel wrote:I think the reason many of us care about crime isn't because we specifically fear it on a day to day basis. It's because we now other people who might otherwise inhabit the city fear it, often times even our friends and family.

bulls eye. I have never feared crime in the city. I lived in Dutchtown (grade school/ highschool) by St.Marys h/s, even there never had issues. After college until last year I lived in Tower Grove Heights section of TGS. I would walk my dog at 2am and never felt scared. Bought a house in south hampton last year and crime is never on my mind, lot of times my back door is open during the night or when im out and about during the day on the weekend so that the dog can go in the yard, thought about doing a doggie door but he is 140 lbs so it would be pretty much cutting half the door. my biggest concern about crime is the perception it gives the city to those on the outside and for those considering moving here.

What i should say by me being a bit fearful of crime makes me more alert..I can't speak for everyone ... Do i constantly look behind myself heck no! I don't think i've ever looked behind myself here like i did when me and friend visited Memphis now that was a bit creepy... Crime isn't ever going to hold me back from going any where in the city. I was born at the old city hospital and raised in many of St.Louis's neighborhoods from Shaw to tower grove to mckreetown to fairgrounds in North St.Louis. I have a big bones for a short person.. I guess I'm a bit more emotional than some