urbanSTL

First of all - I want to say that crime is a big problem - and one that people care about, react to, and make decisions upon. Violent crime, especially.

But, at the risk of irritating some people, I guess I want to challenge the idea that its not taken seriously by the City - and also that there is a "panic button" we can push.

Regardless of what you think about "Stop & Frisk" as a policy, good or bad, its definitely a policy based on a lot of people on the sidewalk, walking around, on public transportation, etc. Stop & Frisk doesn't really work the same way when people committing crimes are in cars - which they frequently are in St. Louis. So I'm not sure that's the way forward.

Second, there are other cities with endemic, long term crime problems, and most of these cities have had a very hard time moving the needle in a meaningful way outside of the general trend that crime has decreased over the last 20 - 30 years.

Two big hurdles in St. Louis that everyone knows about: state controlled PD and state legislature that is not super interested in St. Louis problems. The state makes the laws on all kinds of things - one of them being the fact that adults can drive around with guns, no questions asked.

Between police, sheriffs dept., jails, and prosecutors, we're spending well over 50% of the budget on corrections.

Our jails consistently run above capacity - which means people are being arrested for crimes, big and small. We're hiring 30 or 40 new correctional officers this year to handle the population.

The problem developed over after years of intentionally concentrating poverty - which we now see in vacancy, abandonment, etc.

We also have one of the most dangerous & violent few square miles on our doorstep, totally outside our jurisdiction across the river.

New York made huge strides on crime - but a whole lot of that was also by becoming a very expensive place to live - something not likely to happen here.

I'm not going to argue that all of the money we spend is spent effectively - I'm sure its not. But I also don't think there's a switch to throw so suddenly, "we're taking it seriously now"

My top item for seeing a different approach to some issues is a locally controlled PD - which at the very least I would expect to be more flexible and responsive to resident input - but as everyone knows, that's been a huge problem to achieve.

So outside of stop & frisk and local control (november, maybe) what else do people think would be effective?

Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman

I would like to know what the police/police chief/political leaders think needs to happen to result in better law enforcement, and why they think specific changes will or won't help our crime. Local control is a big one, but before I believe it will result in a big change in our crime rate I'd like to hear specific examples of things that would be different with local control. What exactly would be done differently if we had local control?

Beyond that, if there were a "panic button," what would you want to happen after you pushed it?

More security cameras?
A bond issue to fund more officers?
A change to the way police interact with neighborhoods (e.g., more beat cops)?
A change in the way police interact with citizens?
More neighborhood security groups, promotion of neighborhood ownership models, etc?
More private security in neighborhoods to patrol?

Maybe that's it - the perception of the attitude from folks at the top. I completely agree that gun violence is way too common and the most corrosive force in St. Louis. Police really are hamstrung in some respects by MO gun laws, and also by the absolutely random / petty nature of some shootings.

Higher bonds in gun cases in the last 9 - 12 months has been one concrete thing there has been a push for - but it hasn't been implemented consistently by judges.

Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Want to know what led to my family moving out of the city more than anything? The feeling that we were alone in feeling angry about the violence. The attitude from neighbors was that it's been worse. The attitude from neighborhood development corporation and elected representative was to cite stats showing raw crime numbers decreasing and state how much they've spent on supplementary patrols. Nothing new, no stated resolve, just an attitude of "hey, things are kinda gettin' better like they have over the past 10 years". All of this fails to address the concerns of a family that sees multiple shootings within a couple blocks of their home over a few short weeks. No one in power, from top to bottom, in this city seems to understand that.

I completely understand. It's precisely how I feel about where I live.

I also agree about the "panic button", because I want to see a sign that people at the top like Mayor Slay and Chief Isom truly get it. I know there was a press conference this afternoon. But I still don't come away with the impression that they are willing to do all that it takes to root out violent criminals in our city neighborhoods. I mean, this is hardly the first shocking homicide in the nine years I've lived in the city, but it's the first time I've seen this much public reaction even though almost 1,000 people have been murdered in the city in that time period.

I still stand by what I said earlier. I think this administration has been largely dismissive of violent crime. I've heard a lot more spin than substance with regards to violent crime over the last decade. It seems like it's tolerated as long as it's primarily black-on-black and confined to neighborhoods that were written off years ago, even though the murder of Megan Boken is hardly the first homicide that doesn't meet the aforementioned criteria. It seems like our leaders would prefer to perpetuate the idea that tolerance of this crime is just the price we pay for city living instead of actually doing something to acknowledge and address the problem. Believe me, I still love city living and I can still extol its many virtues to anyone willing to listen. But I hope this is a turning point for more dialogue, and better yet, more action.

ward24 wrote:First of all - I want to say that crime is a big problem - and one that people care about, react to, and make decisions upon. Violent crime, especially.

But, at the risk of irritating some people, I guess I want to challenge the idea that its not taken seriously by the City - and also that there is a "panic button" we can push.

Regardless of what you think about "Stop & Frisk" as a policy, good or bad, its definitely a policy based on a lot of people on the sidewalk, walking around, on public transportation, etc. Stop & Frisk doesn't really work the same way when people committing crimes are in cars - which they frequently are in St. Louis. So I'm not sure that's the way forward.

Second, there are other cities with endemic, long term crime problems, and most of these cities have had a very hard time moving the needle in a meaningful way outside of the general trend that crime has decreased over the last 20 - 30 years.

Two big hurdles in St. Louis that everyone knows about: state controlled PD and state legislature that is not super interested in St. Louis problems. The state makes the laws on all kinds of things - one of them being the fact that adults can drive around with guns, no questions asked.

Between police, sheriffs dept., jails, and prosecutors, we're spending well over 50% of the budget on corrections.

Our jails consistently run above capacity - which means people are being arrested for crimes, big and small. We're hiring 30 or 40 new correctional officers this year to handle the population.

The problem developed over after years of intentionally concentrating poverty - which we now see in vacancy, abandonment, etc.

We also have one of the most dangerous & violent few square miles on our doorstep, totally outside our jurisdiction across the river.

New York made huge strides on crime - but a whole lot of that was also by becoming a very expensive place to live - something not likely to happen here.

I'm not going to argue that all of the money we spend is spent effectively - I'm sure its not. But I also don't think there's a switch to throw so suddenly, "we're taking it seriously now"

My top item for seeing a different approach to some issues is a locally controlled PD - which at the very least I would expect to be more flexible and responsive to resident input - but as everyone knows, that's been a huge problem to achieve.

So outside of stop & frisk and local control (november, maybe) what else do people think would be effective?

Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman

How can we be certain things will improve with a city controlled police department? How do we know that it won't be another mismanaged city department? If you ask police officers if they think things will improve, most say it will be a disaster.

Crimes like this, where the victim is an innocent civilian in a nice neighborhood really hurt the city's image. St Louis is never going to attract quality residents in the numbers needed if it can't keep them safe.

I have only lived in the city for a short time, but I think a big problem is the general sense of apathy in the police force. I know its not exactly a groundbreaking idea, but I think a "broken windows" policy of some sort would help. St. Louis cops don't really seem to sweat the small stuff. I realize that it is difficult when you also have a lot of more serious crimes to deal with, but In my opinion the lack of enforcement contributes to an overall sense of lawlessness which emboldens criminals.

I guess we can't be certain of anything - but with the current structure there is no one to hold accountable if you don't like what's going on, and that's not a good system. An unaccountable system is a bad system. I can't think of an argument why people should pay $165 million annually without the ability to weigh in on what happens at the top and what policies are made. Is it working now?

Quite frankly - the current system is also prone to excuse making, some mayor doesn't like what the chief is doing? Well, what the hell can he do about it? The chief doesn't work for the Mayor. Not his problem.

Its also the best chance at giving citizens and their representatives input on what they think the priorities for the department should be.

What are current police specifically afraid of?

Its hard to find a good metaphor, but if you hired a security firm for your bank, or hired a lawn care company to take care of your house, you expect them to handle all the day to day operations, details, have expertise, but you'd want input on their services generally, no? Where is that mechanism now?

onecity wrote: Another useful tool would be to make all housing subject to an annual code and upkeep inspection and require corrective action within 60 days.

Section 8 already has this. And you can't rent Section 8 with a felony on your record. While I know some think we should limit Sec 8 vouchers, the reality is the STL housing authority is back logged at least 9 months in handing vouchers out because there is so much demand.

In Terry, the Supreme Court ruled that when a police officer witnesses "unusual conduct" that leads that officer to reasonably believe "that criminal activity may be afoot", that the suspicious person has a weapon and that the person is presently dangerous to the officer or others, the officer may conduct a "pat-down search" (or "frisk") to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon. To conduct a frisk, officers must be able to point to specific and articulatory facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant their actions. A vague hunch will not do.

^ that sounds extremely difficult to navigate and probably why people are split on it. There's no doubt about it, its being abused. Harrassing innocent people isn't effective policing, its a 4th amendment violation.

In the short term, harsher penalties is the only way to go.

stlhistory wrote:Not for nothing, but the night before the Boken shooting, we heard about ten gunshots in our neighborhood (Southampton, so it's a rarity to hear such things). We called the police (the neighbors did too), but we never got so much as a patrol car to drive down the street. The police scanner said that another lady on Macklind Avenue had called after hearing shots and having someone bang on her back door trying to get in. No follow-up either way. I guess they were busy with the drive-by on Goodfellow and the craziness elsewhere, but it's telling that nobody seemed to care much. When I heard about what happened in the CWE, I guess it didn't shock me as much as it would have otherwise.

We live in Southampton (technically Princeton Heights) - there was lots of chatter about this on the neighborhood listserv, with people saying they heard what appeared to be 10-12 shots. Apparently some people were shooting fireworks off on Murdoch. Several people said they watched them from their porch.

Re: the police response - I don't say this in any way to discount your and other people's experiences, but we've always found them to be fairly responsive since moving to the St. Louis area about three years ago. Thankfully we haven't had much cause for contact with the police, but one time I called the police about several suspicious teenagers (I know everyone who lives around me - these people were definitely not neighbors) and the police arrived within 5 minutes. It turned out they were a bunch of kids from another part of the city out "joy-riding" where they'd steal a vehicle, drive it to a new location and ditch it, then steal another one. I guess that counts for fun for some people.

Alex Ihnen wrote:

stlhistory wrote:Not for nothing, but the night before the Boken shooting, we heard about ten gunshots in our neighborhood (Southampton, so it's a rarity to hear such things). We called the police (the neighbors did too), but we never got so much as a patrol car to drive down the street. The police scanner said that another lady on Macklind Avenue had called after hearing shots and having someone bang on her back door trying to get in. No follow-up either way. I guess they were busy with the drive-by on Goodfellow and the craziness elsewhere, but it's telling that nobody seemed to care much. When I heard about what happened in the CWE, I guess it didn't shock me as much as it would have otherwise.

Not surprised. On a couple relatively small incidents (teenagers knocking on our door scoping for things to steal, and someone lighting a pile of clothes on fire next to our garage door, kids smoking pot in neighborhood playground, etc.), the police either didn't respond at all, told us to move out of the neighborhood, or never followed up. You honestly feel like you're on your own.

I heard this too on Friday night at around 930ish. Don't worry they were definately fireworks. I was attending a bbq on Winona avenue in South Hampton and saw the fireworks with my own eyes.

threeonefour wrote:I still stand by what I said earlier. I think this administration has been largely dismissive of violent crime. I've heard a lot more spin than substance with regards to violent crime over the last decade. It seems like it's tolerated as long as it's primarily black-on-black and confined to neighborhoods that were written off years ago, even though the murder of Megan Boken is hardly the first homicide that doesn't meet the aforementioned criteria. It seems like our leaders would prefer to perpetuate the idea that tolerance of this crime is just the price we pay for city living instead of actually doing something to acknowledge and address the problem. Believe me, I still love city living and I can still extol its many virtues to anyone willing to listen. But I hope this is a turning point for more dialogue, and better yet, more action.

At the risk of offending everyone (I hope not, but here goes!)-
It's not just the leaders who perpetuate that idea that crime (especially "petty crime") is just the price you pay to live in the city, sometimes it's ardent city supporters too! I've read posts on this NextSTL forum saying that stuff like car break-ins, burglaries, etc., are basically things one has to accept if you want to live in a "vibrant city", as if you haven't truly experienced city life until you car's been clouted.

Say what you will about the "best-places-to-live" type suburbs, but it seems that in those places, there's an attitude from the top city officials all the way down to the average person in a neighborhood that crime is simply unacceptable - there's no "sorry your iPod was stolen from your car, that happened to me when I moved here too".

Like all of us, I hope the Megan Boken tragedy is a turning point for all people to get more involved dialogue and action at all levels.

Someone a few pages back brought up the Gina Stallis murder and mentioned that her killer, Mario Coleman, had multiple SISs. I don't, however, remember anybody mentioning the name of the judge or judges that let him walk.

Does anybody track the sentencing of judges in the city? If not would it be productive to do so. I can't remember hearing about a judge not being retained. Should we demand more accountability from our judges?

justme123 wrote:At the risk of offending everyone (I hope not, but here goes!)-
It's not just the leaders who perpetuate that idea that crime (especially "petty crime") is just the price you pay to live in the city, sometimes it's ardent city supporters too! I've read posts on this NextSTL forum saying that stuff like car break-ins, burglaries, etc., are basically things one has to accept if you want to live in a "vibrant city", as if you haven't truly experienced city life until you car's been clouted.

Say what you will about the "best-places-to-live" type suburbs, but it seems that in those places, there's an attitude from the top city officials all the way down to the average person in a neighborhood that crime is simply unacceptable - there's no "sorry your iPod was stolen from your car, that happened to me when I moved here too".

I'm not offended at all...I completely agree. A lot of people have made excuses; I think the tragic death of Megan Boken proves the time for excuse making is over.

ebo wrote:Someone a few pages back brought up the Gina Stallis murder and mentioned that her killer, Mario Coleman, had multiple SISs. I don't, however, remember anybody mentioning the name of the judge or judges that let him walk.

Does anybody track the sentencing of judges in the city? If not would it be productive to do so. I can't remember hearing about a judge not being retained. Should we demand more accountability from our judges?

That was me. I don't remember which judges heard Mario Coleman's prior cases. But you bring up a great point about the importance of tracking the sentences judges hand out in the city's courts. I haven't looked at Casenet in ages...does it have this information? Or does anyone know of another information source?

Demanding more accountability from judges is a crucial step toward reducing violent crime. We need to flush the weak links out of the system!