The least substantive thing I will read all day. Guaranteed.ttricamo wrote:Fix. The. Crime.
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Good question about why we report the statistics...but honesty, in the end, will be what helps St. Louis continue the trend of lowering crime...
This whole thing is absolutely unbelievably baffling to me...Again, I'm not in denial that there is crime in my Downtown West neighborhood...there is...tho I've never felt terrified by it...cops are around...whatever...
BUT THERE IS NO WAY ST LOUIS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS CITY IN AMERICA!
Thats just a silly, stupid statement...
I wonder if there is a way to rattle legal swords and bring up a libel suit against either the organization responsible for the survey of the AP for carrying it? Im half serious...
And along with the lawsuit well attach a more ACCURATE report of crime and the City's ongoing plan to tackle the crime problems of all the City and region...
Its just so silly...you dont walk across the City border on Delmar and become safe or walk the other way and suddenly need a flack jacket...
This whole thing is absolutely unbelievably baffling to me...Again, I'm not in denial that there is crime in my Downtown West neighborhood...there is...tho I've never felt terrified by it...cops are around...whatever...
BUT THERE IS NO WAY ST LOUIS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS CITY IN AMERICA!
Thats just a silly, stupid statement...
I wonder if there is a way to rattle legal swords and bring up a libel suit against either the organization responsible for the survey of the AP for carrying it? Im half serious...
And along with the lawsuit well attach a more ACCURATE report of crime and the City's ongoing plan to tackle the crime problems of all the City and region...
Its just so silly...you dont walk across the City border on Delmar and become safe or walk the other way and suddenly need a flack jacket...
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there is a whole thread on crime with a good discussion of issues, but this report is an occasion for mocking and ridicule of teh stupit.ttricamo wrote:this forum has this same conversation every year when these stats are released. Creatures of habit we are (Yoda voice)
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Instead of acting all high and mighty, why not start off the discussion? The list is extremely faulty but we still know we have a crime problem, what do you propose?ttricamo wrote:
Wow. 2.5 pages of debating the validity of our ranking as the most dangerous city. Watch that St. Louis Mindset as it has a way of creeping up on you. Where is the 2.5 pages discussing how to address the crime problem? You know, actually fix the problem instead of skewing the data to move us in the ranking?
Furthermore, this forum has this same conversation every year when these stats are released. Creatures of habit we are (Yoda voice)
Fix. The. Crime.
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Don't read the comments
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/If-youre ... 29949.html
I will never understand why the citizens of this area shoot their metro in the foot so much. I wonder if many people realize that the suburbs need the city (and to an extent vise versa)?
It makes the area look ten times worse when the own residents have nothing good to say about it.
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/If-youre ... 29949.html
I will never understand why the citizens of this area shoot their metro in the foot so much. I wonder if many people realize that the suburbs need the city (and to an extent vise versa)?
It makes the area look ten times worse when the own residents have nothing good to say about it.
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Here's the problem: Someone yells "FIX THE CRIME."
OK, I'm on board, I want to "fix" our crime. What does that mean? Where do we start? Is crime better or worse in St. Louis than in other comparable regions? What's that? We don't know? So we know crime is bad. We all want less crime. Good. Let's start there, less is better. So what's a realistic goal for less crime? "WE WON'T STOP UNTIL CRIME IS ZERO!" Or a slightly less hyperbolic stance may be to expect crime to decrease every year. Well, count me out. I'm still focused on the War on Poverty and War on Drugs - how are those going anyway? Until we understand crime in our City we can't know what to demand or expect except always calling for no crime or less crime. That's simply not a solution. It's a formula for always blaming someone for not "fixing" the crime.
OK, I'm on board, I want to "fix" our crime. What does that mean? Where do we start? Is crime better or worse in St. Louis than in other comparable regions? What's that? We don't know? So we know crime is bad. We all want less crime. Good. Let's start there, less is better. So what's a realistic goal for less crime? "WE WON'T STOP UNTIL CRIME IS ZERO!" Or a slightly less hyperbolic stance may be to expect crime to decrease every year. Well, count me out. I'm still focused on the War on Poverty and War on Drugs - how are those going anyway? Until we understand crime in our City we can't know what to demand or expect except always calling for no crime or less crime. That's simply not a solution. It's a formula for always blaming someone for not "fixing" the crime.
I am so tired of the "oh if you disagree with this report you must not think we have a crime problem" attitude. Yes, we all acknowledge that crime is too high. But this study says that St. Louis is the most dangerous city in America. Does anyone here actually believe that? It should piss off any self respecting St. Louis booster to see how this junk science is damaging our city's reputation.
Addressing the issue of crime and how to reduce it is a more complicated issue but it is definitely one we should spend time talking about too. We definitely have a crime problem here. Just because some of us are passionate about debunking this "study", doesn't mean we don't care about crime here or believe it doesn't exist.
Addressing the issue of crime and how to reduce it is a more complicated issue but it is definitely one we should spend time talking about too. We definitely have a crime problem here. Just because some of us are passionate about debunking this "study", doesn't mean we don't care about crime here or believe it doesn't exist.
Nothing like being LOUDLY called a big, fat drunk in the middle of the food court at the mall...especially when you've been attending your AA meetings and working out...
I haven't researched it yet, but any quick insights as to why crime has been on the decline in recent years? Or if this is even accurate...
I haven't researched it yet, but any quick insights as to why crime has been on the decline in recent years? Or if this is even accurate...
^Well, went out there and posted my two cents...I think I'm okay...
Answered stupid with stupid, but I did get in a Go Blues!
And mayor Slay had a great quote I thought...went something like 'Crime statistics measure crime. Crime lists measure where we draw lines.' If this is followed with common sense message about fighting crime, its about all he can do.
I'm thinking the best way to get at the root of crime (outside of using our churches to instill valid moral codes in folks, the best option IMHO) is education. The growing charter school efforts to give QUALITY education to our City's youth is I think the best long term way to reduce crime. So often, a majority of these crimes are commited by the just plain lazy and stupid...
Answered stupid with stupid, but I did get in a Go Blues!
And mayor Slay had a great quote I thought...went something like 'Crime statistics measure crime. Crime lists measure where we draw lines.' If this is followed with common sense message about fighting crime, its about all he can do.
I'm thinking the best way to get at the root of crime (outside of using our churches to instill valid moral codes in folks, the best option IMHO) is education. The growing charter school efforts to give QUALITY education to our City's youth is I think the best long term way to reduce crime. So often, a majority of these crimes are commited by the just plain lazy and stupid...
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I had two buddies call me to cower in fear. They think I'm a bad ass since I come from the mean streets of St Louis.sirshankalot wrote:With all due respect, it doesn't matter. The cat's out of the bag. I had two buddies of mine from CHI call me laughing about STL. They were laughing because CHI doesn't even report their crime numbers to the FBI, presumably because they're so bad.
WHY DO WE ?
This.ttricamo wrote:Wow. 2.5 pages of debating the validity of our ranking as the most dangerous city. Watch that St. Louis Mindset as it has a way of creeping up on you. Where is the 2.5 pages discussing how to address the crime problem? You know, actually fix the problem instead of skewing the data to move us in the ranking?
Furthermore, this forum has this same conversation every year when these stats are released. Creatures of habit we are (Yoda voice)
Fix. The. Crime.
Bingo.
QFT.
Since I'm sure the people who publish this have heard all the complaints, and clearly disagree or don't care, what's the point of the annual whining?
Whenever some poll shows St Louis in a positive light, no one here ever questions the methodology. Odd, that.
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What do you mean bingo? Fix the crime?? What is it that you are suggesting, manual sterilizations, capital punishment for all crimes?
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We need to work on the denominator -- get good people to move INTO the city, not out.
Unfortunately promoting these kinds of rankings result in just the opposite, which makes the crime count per remaining resident even worse, even when total crime is going down.
I can understand why big publications in New York and LA promote this particular ranking. It makes their cities look good and the Midwest cities look bad. But why in the world would local publications like the Post Dispatch and and KMOX and the local TV stations promote this dubious cities list over the CQ metro list or any of the more credible statistical reports? They think it will pressure city hall to work on reducing crime (numerator) and improve our crimes/person ranking. But it just encourages good people to leave which worsens the crimes per person rate.
Unfortunately promoting these kinds of rankings result in just the opposite, which makes the crime count per remaining resident even worse, even when total crime is going down.
I can understand why big publications in New York and LA promote this particular ranking. It makes their cities look good and the Midwest cities look bad. But why in the world would local publications like the Post Dispatch and and KMOX and the local TV stations promote this dubious cities list over the CQ metro list or any of the more credible statistical reports? They think it will pressure city hall to work on reducing crime (numerator) and improve our crimes/person ranking. But it just encourages good people to leave which worsens the crimes per person rate.
The Morning After on 590 had the Mayor on this morning. Most of the half hour plus he spent on the show was on the crime stats.
In my opinion Slay didn't come off very good at all - although faced some tough questions. He awkwardly cited a lot of stats to try to refute the findings but couldn't really answer what the City was doing to solve the problems. Would be interested to get other people's thoughts.
Segment 4 of: http://www.insidestl.com/insideSTLcom/R ... Audio.aspx
In my opinion Slay didn't come off very good at all - although faced some tough questions. He awkwardly cited a lot of stats to try to refute the findings but couldn't really answer what the City was doing to solve the problems. Would be interested to get other people's thoughts.
Segment 4 of: http://www.insidestl.com/insideSTLcom/R ... Audio.aspx
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Gosh, I disagree and think Slay did a commendable job answering the questions about crime. Do you really expect him to be able to rattle of a whole bunch of stats by memory? Do you not realize how difficult it is prevent a smash and grab?
IMO, Jim Hayes comes off as a real jerk. To say that if he parks his car on the street "his car will probably be broken into" and "a good chance it will be broken into" is a massive exaggeration.
IMO, Jim Hayes comes off as a real jerk. To say that if he parks his car on the street "his car will probably be broken into" and "a good chance it will be broken into" is a massive exaggeration.
I certainly understand your perspective. Though citing detailed statistics to the tenth of a percent repeatedly that crime is going down can only carry his argument so far. People realize and see there is a crime problem and he didn't offer a clear explanation as to how he thought it should be addressed. To me he came off as very defensive (which I can certainly understand why).
Hayes did exaggerate the smash and grab risk, however, normally he is a strong advocate for the city. I interpreted his motivation stemming from genuine frustration and caring about the city, not trying to make Slay look bad.
Hayes did exaggerate the smash and grab risk, however, normally he is a strong advocate for the city. I interpreted his motivation stemming from genuine frustration and caring about the city, not trying to make Slay look bad.
ZING! By all means, don't let me stop you from defending our crime problem.Alex Ihnen wrote:The least substantive thing I will read all day. Guaranteed.ttricamo wrote:Fix. The. Crime.
My comment was not meant to sound high and mighty. I was merely trying to point out the futility of complaining about this ranking, and how the act of complaining about this ranking only perpetuates the dreaded St. Louis Mindset.Moorlander wrote: Instead of acting all high and mighty, why not start off the discussion? The list is extremely faulty but we still know we have a crime problem, what do you propose?
Tell me, would anyone sit here and complain if we were ranked as the #1 SAFEST city in America yet the overall metro area took us down to #103? Would we all sit here and try and "invalidate" the "questionable statistics" that were used to make the ranking (read: city boundaries)? Questioning the data is a weak defense at best.
I chose a counterpoint that was three words long as opposed to pages and pages of defensive rambling.
Fix. The. Crime.
The root cause of the crime problem in this city is wide, varied, racial, systemic, and extremely complex. For the record, I've attempted many times to start a discussion on fixing the crime problem (in this very thread). And, I also happen to believe that "raising the flag", as these statistics so often do, is a healthy part of fixing the problem. Unfortunately, in lock step with the St. Louis Mindset, citizens become defensive of the statistics as opposed to acknowledging the problem they bring to light.
The biggest step any of us could ever take in addressing the crime (including city leadership) is actually admitting that we do have a problem. To continue a weak (and laughable) argument is unhealthy, counter-productive, and, apparently, cyclical.
"According to CQ, St. Louis had over 2,000 crimes per 100,000 residents..."metzgda wrote:At least CNN.com has this article online:
St. Louis most violent? It's not so simple, expert says.
This statistic is factually correct. If you live in the city of St. Louis (or your thinking about moving there), this is a real-life issue for you.
Fun With Numbers: Let's use this forum as a data set, and assuming 100 people are reading this thread, and they all live or work in the city, and we DO NOT count multiple, annual instances of crime against you uniquely, we'd need 2 people to have experienced crime to fit this statistic.
Quick Question: How many of you on this forum that live or work in the City have been the victim of crime?
My Stats:
2010: Car window broken. Phone Charger and GPS Charger stolen
2009: Tool Shed Broken into. Lawn Mower and Weed Eater stolen.
As a data set, we would need one more person to have experienced crime on this thread IN THE LAST TWO YEARS to fit this statistic. Furthermore, assuming more people have experienced crime (and I already know of another person reading this thread that has experienced crime), the idea that "crime mainly happens to criminals" is further refuted (from the KMOX link posted in the thread), assuming none of us are criminals.
Bottomline: The crime problem is real.
Fix. The. Crime.
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Where can I find one of these shirts? Stl-style?threeonefour wrote: Well, at least those that bought the "brave enough to live in America's most dangerous city" t-shirts can still wear their rags with pride.
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We have a crime problem no doubt. You have to be in denial to not see this. I think we're in the top 10 easy, take a look around. Sit through a Voir Dire in the city courts and listen to how many people have personally been assaulted and victims of very serious crime. It's sobering and sad. The problems are very complex, but there are some things that help:
1. call the police (emergency and non-emergency), NSOs, aldermen, CSB, etc to report any and all crimes. nothing is too small to be ignored or shrugged off.
2. Report public drinking and ridiculous public behavior. If low class morons aren't hassled by the police and neighbors, they win and will take a neighborhood/street/property down to their level.
3. Work/vote for local control of the police. Merge with the county. We are a city of ~350,000 and it's fair to compare our crime stats with those of other cities that are of similar size. It's not fair to compare St. Louis to Ladue or Detroit or San Fran, but it seems fair game to compare us to Wichita, Arlington, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, Toledo, etc.
And for anyone who complains about having their car broken into and their GPS or phone stolen, I don't feel sorry for you. Fix. The. Naive. Behavior. Get wise, crime happens everywhere.
1. call the police (emergency and non-emergency), NSOs, aldermen, CSB, etc to report any and all crimes. nothing is too small to be ignored or shrugged off.
2. Report public drinking and ridiculous public behavior. If low class morons aren't hassled by the police and neighbors, they win and will take a neighborhood/street/property down to their level.
3. Work/vote for local control of the police. Merge with the county. We are a city of ~350,000 and it's fair to compare our crime stats with those of other cities that are of similar size. It's not fair to compare St. Louis to Ladue or Detroit or San Fran, but it seems fair game to compare us to Wichita, Arlington, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, Toledo, etc.
And for anyone who complains about having their car broken into and their GPS or phone stolen, I don't feel sorry for you. Fix. The. Naive. Behavior. Get wise, crime happens everywhere.
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Come on, that's human nature not the St. Louis mindset.ttricamo wrote:the act of complaining about this ranking only perpetuates the dreaded St. Louis Mindset.
Tell me, would anyone sit here and complain if we were ranked as the #1 SAFEST city in America yet the overall metro area took us down to #103? Would we all sit here and try and "invalidate" the "questionable statistics" that were used to make the ranking (read: city boundaries)? Questioning the data is a weak defense at best.
^howling...(about the injustice to St. Louis)
lol
...and btw, the 'St. Louis mindset' would in fact find fault with a list that ranked the City as the safest without including more dangerous County munis...someway, somehow these folks would go running looking for rope given such good news...
lol
...and btw, the 'St. Louis mindset' would in fact find fault with a list that ranked the City as the safest without including more dangerous County munis...someway, somehow these folks would go running looking for rope given such good news...