urbanSTL

I sympathize with Gopher's concern for his child. I'm not a parent myself, but I understand that taking care of one's children is priority #1.



However much of his post was hyperbole and exaggeration. I don't understand the need to drive everywhere when I see families of tourists with children in tow on the streets of downtown on a regular basis.



And I haven't heard anyone on this board claim that crime and safety aren't concerns for downtown residents. Seems to me these folks contact the police, city hall, attend meetings, work to make the neighborhood better. Your decision to leave is a personal one and I wish you well, but please don't belittle those who choose not to follow you.

Matt Drops The H wrote:

gopher wrote:Just do what I do and turn your radio on at night and make sure if you have kids that they are sleeping behind a nice thick brick wall, preferably low and close to the floor.



The gunfire awakened and scared my child who climbed into my bed last night.



At this point I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE and as a parent I don't have the luxury of "waiting" until things get better so we are getting the hell out. My son has gotten one hell of an "education" downtown all right. One that is entrenched in fear not by what he is told, but by what he has seen.



I am a parent and my sole responsibility is to ensure the safety and well being of my child. I refuse to take my child outdoors on the street, we drive everywhere, I have not taken him to the adult-daycare (I mean library) in over a year because of the bums, this isn't living people, it's a god-damn war zone and it's unacceptable.



But not to worry! People who don't even live here will tell you nothing is wrong and that there's nothing to see here. To those I say, "You can take your jedi-mind tricks and shove it."

Yeah, you did not seem like a good fit for downtown. Or for a city.



Gunshots are horrible, scary, and residents of a neighborhood have every right to be angry and upset at events like this.



Your comments about the homeless, though, are inexcusable. You may resent that the homeless have few other places to go, but they have every right to be in that library as much as you do.



Plus, even with the news of gunshots and a couple murders downtown this year, how many times have innocent people been harmed? I'd wager not too many. For a downtown with 85,000 daily workers, plus tourists and convention traffic, plus 10,000 residents every night--crime is pretty low. I know you have a primal fear of losing a child to gunfire--that's normal--but I can't help but think the way to make things safer is to contribute rather than pack up and leave.



I'm upset that you moved downtown and taught your son inordinate fear and classism.



Best of luck with the move.



And on that note, I'd really like to hear of other downtown parents' experiences. Sorry if this came off as harsh.

+1 and best of luck.

gopher wrote:Just do what I do and turn your radio on at night and make sure if you have kids that they are sleeping behind a nice thick brick wall, preferably low and close to the floor.



The gunfire awakened and scared my child who climbed into my bed last night.



At this point I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE and as a parent I don't have the luxury of "waiting" until things get better so we are getting the hell out. My son has gotten one hell of an "education" downtown all right. One that is entrenched in fear not by what he is told, but by what he has seen.



I am a parent and my sole responsibility is to ensure the safety and well being of my child. I refuse to take my child outdoors on the street, we drive everywhere, I have not taken him to the adult-daycare (I mean library) in over a year because of the bums, this isn't living people, it's a god-damn war zone and it's unacceptable.



But not to worry! People who don't even live here will tell you nothing is wrong and that there's nothing to see here. To those I say, "You can take your jedi-mind tricks and shove it."

I have to say that this sounds more like a STLToday/PD comments rant than something that is usually on these boards. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, don't get me wrong, but no one has said that there are not issues with downtown regarding criminal activity, the homeless, etc. I am not sure where you got that impression. I do agree with you that raising a child downtown would be more challenging than in the suburbs, if for no other reason than the fact that there are fewer parents and children downtown to get together with. In turn, there are few (no?) junior leagues, playgrounds, etc. nearby. If it's your decision that, based on the criterion that perceived safety downtown is low, you are going to move out, I would agree with that. However, I would not say that downtown is particularly unsafe. Most violent crimes are perpetrated against other violent people and other crime levels (break-ins, theft, etc.) are dropping as more and more people move downtown. That's just my impression, but the crime maps for downtown relect this belief. Where you live is a personal decision, but, when "warning" other people about downtown, you should make sure to differentiate between anecdotal evidence and hard data.

Grover wrote:

gopher wrote:Just do what I do and turn your radio on at night and make sure if you have kids that they are sleeping behind a nice thick brick wall, preferably low and close to the floor.



The gunfire awakened and scared my child who climbed into my bed last night.



At this point I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE and as a parent I don't have the luxury of "waiting" until things get better so we are getting the hell out. My son has gotten one hell of an "education" downtown all right. One that is entrenched in fear not by what he is told, but by what he has seen.



I am a parent and my sole responsibility is to ensure the safety and well being of my child. I refuse to take my child outdoors on the street, we drive everywhere, I have not taken him to the adult-daycare (I mean library) in over a year because of the bums, this isn't living people, it's a god-damn war zone and it's unacceptable.



But not to worry! People who don't even live here will tell you nothing is wrong and that there's nothing to see here. To those I say, "You can take your jedi-mind tricks and shove it."

As the parent of a 15-month-old daughter I understand that you have every right to be upset. I hope that you find a safe and quite neighborhood for your family.



I do not live downtown. I live in Forest Park Southeast, but deal with some of the same stuff (neighbor's homes broken into, friend's car windows being broken, etc.). The thing I wanted to comment on is your strawman argument that someone "will tell you nothing is wrong and that there's nothing to see here." At least I know absolutely no one who would say that. I'm sorry if you were misled. Our city neighborhoods are not the same as Ballwin, Creve Coeur or some other places. I live where I do because of its location. I would rather up with what some would call typical urban issues than drive to work everyday or live far from a good place to run (Forest Park). It's a balancing act for everyone.

I have a 9 y/o daughter and currently live in Shaw after spending 3 years living down the street from Grover- we survived that.



It is a balancing act. I choose to raise my daughter to be aware that there are things we need to be careful of out there and at the same time not to live life afraid to walk across to the neighbors. For some reason people think children are supposed to be completely innocent and unaware of life's dangers but if that were so then I don't think the Grimm Bros would have had the material they had.



Anyway, sucks that gopher had such a bad experience downtown.

lukethedrifter wrote:I have a 9 y/o daughter and currently live in Shaw after spending 3 years living down the street from Grover- we survived that.



It is a balancing act. I choose to raise my daughter to be aware that there are things we need to be careful of out there and at the same time not to live life afraid to walk across to the neighbors. For some reason people think children are supposed to be completely innocent and unaware of life's dangers but if that were so then I don't think the Grimm Bros would have had the material they had.

We have lived in Carondelet with our 6 y/o son for five years. I think you're right- it's a balancing act. There have been many times where I felt frustration similar to what gopher has experienced. However, despite some real problems that I won't elaborate on for brevity's sake, I don't feel that my area is a "war zone" by any means. Also, we have spent a significant amount of time in downtown with our son over the years, long before Citygarden made that the fashionable thing for parents to do. I can't say I've ever felt unsafe downtown, with or without my son along. Maybe I'm just fortunate, but we're never the only parents with (a) child(ren) along for the journey whenever we're downtown, so I'd like to know what other parents think that either live downtown or visit it frequently as we try to do.



Gopher, as a parent, I can certainly relate to how you feel, as there are times when I am not exactly happy with my neighborhood. Our son isn't sheltered more than any other 6 y/o child, however, I know of things that have happened to the point that there are times when I'm less comfortable taking a walk with him or letting him play in the front of our house than I would be in, say, Southampton or Lindenwood for a couple of examples.



So we'll move when the time comes, but it will be to get a home with more room and more space for our son to play, and it will most likely have a city address as long as we can find something within our size requirements and price range when it's time for us to make the move. Even with the inevitable trade-offs that sometimes come with city living, there are so many advantages that I can't picture us living anywhere else.

It's not the gunshots. It's the fact that our police seem not to give a damn about coming down to enforce keeping our neighborhood safe.



Last night is a perfect example. It's the "Grown & Sexy" night down at Tucker & Washington. Rough crowd.



I watch as an officer pulls over a car - awesome, finally some enforcement of the drunk drivers all over the place. Nope, he gets out, flirts with the girls in the car, and lets them go. They then speed off and turn the wrong way down a one-way - and the officer drives away without paying attention.



TYPICAL.

Matt Drops The H wrote:

gopher wrote:Just do what I do and turn your radio on at night and make sure if you have kids that they are sleeping behind a nice thick brick wall, preferably low and close to the floor.



The gunfire awakened and scared my child who climbed into my bed last night.



At this point I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE and as a parent I don't have the luxury of "waiting" until things get better so we are getting the hell out. My son has gotten one hell of an "education" downtown all right. One that is entrenched in fear not by what he is told, but by what he has seen.



I am a parent and my sole responsibility is to ensure the safety and well being of my child. I refuse to take my child outdoors on the street, we drive everywhere, I have not taken him to the adult-daycare (I mean library) in over a year because of the bums, this isn't living people, it's a god-damn war zone and it's unacceptable.



But not to worry! People who don't even live here will tell you nothing is wrong and that there's nothing to see here. To those I say, "You can take your jedi-mind tricks and shove it."

Yeah, you did not seem like a good fit for downtown. Or for a city.



Gunshots are horrible, scary, and residents of a neighborhood have every right to be angry and upset at events like this.



Your comments about the homeless, though, are inexcusable. You may resent that the homeless have few other places to go, but they have every right to be in that library as much as you do.



Plus, even with the news of gunshots and a couple murders downtown this year, how many times have innocent people been harmed? I'd wager not too many. For a downtown with 85,000 daily workers, plus tourists and convention traffic, plus 10,000 residents every night--crime is pretty low. I know you have a primal fear of losing a child to gunfire--that's normal--but I can't help but think the way to make things safer is to contribute rather than pack up and leave.



I'm upset that you moved downtown and taught your son inordinate fear and classism.



Best of luck with the move.



And on that note, I'd really like to hear of other downtown parents' experiences. Sorry if this came off as harsh.

=D> You took the words right out of my mouth! I never did understand why Gopher was living Downtown. I know we have problems down here but I never could understand his complete hatred and rage for the homeless. I was always waiting for him to go postal or something. I do wish him and his family the best of luck in a neighborhood better suited for them. It seems like it would be impossible to comfortably live anywhere (let alone downtown ) if you are over protective in nature and living in constant fear.

I’m not on board with some of the “love it or leave it” comments above, especially since we’ve lost about 500,000 people over the past 60 years or so.



Gopher was a bit over the top, but the fact is that many people leave the City because of basic quality of life issues like petty crime, noise, and the indulgence of panhandling.

Not to turn this into a gunshot reporting thread, but did anyone else hear anything in the Central West End last night? I heard five shots in a row around 3:10, and they seemed to be very close to where I am on Lindell between Euclid and Taylor. I saw a police van and car fly down Lindell about five minutes after it happened and then race back the opposite direction. The experience was a first and was rather jarring.

Roy314 wrote:I’m not on board with some of the “love it or leave it” comments above, especially since we’ve lost about 500,000 people over the past 60 years or so.

Good quote!



That being said, some people I will tell "good riddance" when they are just absolutely running the city down.

Gopher, I understand your concerns however I think you are overreacting with comments like I refuse to walk down the street. Thats make the problems worse since we all know the more eyes on the street the safer. Plus have you seen the amount of pedestrian activity? A lot of people walking dogs and pushing strollers that have never had a problem. I think you let petty things bother you too much.



Overall I dont think there is a problem with crime downtown but there is always room to improve safety just like any other neighborhood.

jNewt wrote:Not to turn this into a gunshot reporting thread, but did anyone else hear anything in the Central West End last night? I heard five shots in a row around 3:10, and they seemed to be very close to where I am on Lindell between Euclid and Taylor. I saw a police van and car fly down Lindell about five minutes after it happened and then race back the opposite direction. The experience was a first and was rather jarring.

If you mean 3:10 yesterday afternoon, there was a police pursuit in the 8th District which probably included part of the CWE. It was pretty widespread. The pursuit happened earlier in the afternoon and the suspect bailed, so they might have been related. Not sure what it could have been at 3:10am

3:10am. I couldn't say I'm an expert on identifying gunfire, but I'm fairly certain that's what it was.

Roy314 wrote:I’m not on board with some of the “love it or leave it” comments above, especially since we’ve lost about 500,000 people over the past 60 years or so.



Gopher was a bit over the top, but the fact is that many people leave the City because of basic quality of life issues like petty crime, noise, and the indulgence of panhandling.

Maybe not "love it or leave it" but maybe "either you can handle it or you can't."



There was also a pretty heavy duty, high speed police pursuit happening around Grand and Washington around 10pm last night. I saw 2 cop cars coming really close to crashing at the intersection. I doubt it was related to the CWE one because of the time difference.

jNewt wrote:3:10am. I couldn't say I'm an expert on identifying gunfire, but I'm fairly certain that's what it was.

I'm a little late to this, having searched several sources to try and learn what this was all about. It was just after 3:00am on SAT night, and right outside my condo on Lindell I heard 3 gunshots. I heard a car drive away before I could get to the window, expecting to see a body on the sidewalk. Within 5 minutes or so there were seveal police cars coming from all directions, and a woman in the street (literally) yelling at the cops as they drove by. I went out on my balcony, and counted 11 cop cars between my building and Grand, all heading east. I assumed there was an officer involved in the shooting to have so many police in the chase. I never heard anything about it on the news or in the print media.

CWEnder wrote:

jNewt wrote:3:10am. I couldn't say I'm an expert on identifying gunfire, but I'm fairly certain that's what it was.

I'm a little late to this, having searched several sources to try and learn what this was all about. It was just after 3:00am on SAT night, and right outside my condo on Lindell I heard 3 gunshots. I heard a car drive away before I could get to the window, expecting to see a body on the sidewalk. Within 5 minutes or so there were seveal police cars coming from all directions, and a woman in the street (literally) yelling at the cops as they drove by. I went out on my balcony, and counted 11 cop cars between my building and Grand, all heading east. I assumed there was an officer involved in the shooting to have so many police in the chase. I never heard anything about it on the news or in the print media.

There was a road rage incident and a number of shots were fired by occupants of one car at another. This occured in the area of Taylor and Lindell. The shooters left the scene and were discovered on Lindell near Forest Park. They were followed up to the area of Jefferson and Glasgow where they were lost. No one was shot, just a truck was damaged. The yelling lady was one of the victims who was worried about the police getting hurt. The other victim was an off-duty police officer from a municipality in the county.



Hope that helps a little.

^^^^ Thanks FloPoErich. I'm considering an iPhone app that (allegedly) lets me tune into police radio bandwiths.

Hhhmmm...I was just getting ready to drop $2.99 at the iTunes app store on Police Scanner. I'll do more research...