urbanSTL

rbb wrote:

Mound City wrote:The real reason why the NBA won't ever be in St. Louis is because the NBA prefers markets where they don't have to compete with other "big four" sports, especially NHL hockey which runs pretty much at the exact same time that NBA does. If the NBA is coming to Missouri, I predict it would go to Kansas City first because there's no NHL team there.

Like someone else already pointed out here, fifteen years ago we had a guy who had the money and the means to support an NBA team here, and the NBA basically told him no.

The NBA ain't happening here.

Well here they'd only have to compete with two of the big four, and presumably one they'd be partnering with. The Cardinals are huge here, but one would think not having to compete with the behemoth that is the NFL would be attractive.

Kansas City seems perfectly happy with the use of their arena sans a team, though I'm sure they'd take either an NBA or an NHL franchise in a heartbeat. The STL MSA is the size of Kansas City's and Knoxville's combined. I would think the NBA would rather enter the larger two-team market than the smaller; nothing against KC at all.

-RBB

I think your reasoning misses the mark because the NBA preferred Memphis as a landing spot for the Grizzlies to St. Louis, which is smaller than both KC and STL. It isn't about market size, it's about the teams they'd be competing with. It's neither here nor there, though. As has been said repeatedly in this thread, we had a billionaire who owned the arena they'd play in willing to buy and move a team here, and the NBA wouldn't let him.

It's not happening in St. Louis. It never will.

It can work.

The Rams leaving has opened the door to a new arena for the Blues. I can see St. Louis being proactive on this the same way Houston was when the Oilers left town for Tennessee; Rockets and Astros got new stadiums.

Scott Trade Center is out of date now so I know the Blues we probably start asking for another. If the a new arena is built for the Blues within the next decade STL can take a shot Grizzlies or Hawks. The Grizzlies lease is over at the FedEx Forum in 2028. The Hawks owner already complaining about their 16 year old arena and that the other two ATL teams have new arenas. The Pelicans lease comes up in 2024.

There is relocation every 2 to 3 years in the NBA.

Fun Fact: St. Louis hosted the NBA All Star Game in 1965 Chamberlain vs Russell

82 home dates for a 400-500 million dollar arena is pretty comparable to the Cardinals.

I would prefer expansion over relocation though, I just have my doubts on how the NBA sees St. Louis, despite the talent coming out of here. I really don't feel like being jerked around. I'm even pretty skeptical of all this MLS attention lately.

One thing I don't get though is why being a college basketball hotbed is attractive to the NBA. Wouldn't it be harder to compete with next year's number one draft pick down the street than hockey? It might be time for US sports to go promotion/relegation -which actually sucks - but we have drafts and salary caps which makes a huge difference.

^41 homes dates if you're talking about the NBA.

wabash wrote:^41 homes dates if you're talking about the NBA.

82 if it's a new arena with the Blues and I don't think a new arena happens without two teams. Otherwise the Blues will get just enough to update scottrade.

It is not really about attendance anymore with sports teams. It is about TV money the Lakers have their own channel, same with the Knicks that makes them able to spend more than small market teams. The Cardinals just got a billion dollar TV contract with Fox Sports Midwest to spend more money. The Pacers and Grizzlies have an agreement with Fox Sports Midwest to get more TV money by broadcasting their games here in St. Louis.

This not the NFL with profit sharing. There are several teams losing money.

"The NBA, meanwhile, has independently-audited financial records to show a number of teams are losing money," writes Michael McCann.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... sing-Money

I still think the NFL is not done in this city, maybe for the long term but not forever; same with the NBA. There will always be teams relocating it is apart of American sports.

^ That's the only way I see it -- and the only way I'd want to see it -- happening with the NBA. The Scottrade Center is only one year older than the Edward Jones Dome and doesn't have the same game-day experience stigma that the JoDo did (imagine that, a consistently-winning team has a good-to-great game-day experience!).

With a new team presumably comes new dollars, both private and public, to update the arena to the point it can function well as a two-team venue for the next 20+ years. Maybe with two professional teams playing there, it becomes National Car Rental Arena for close to the amount the stadium would have received.

I was excited about a new riverfront football stadium (and I don't even watch/follow football!), but my stomach for new stadium construction has soured now. I suspect manyfeel the same, both in the general public and in leadership roles.

arch_genesis wrote: They wanted him to wait another year before he moved the Grizzlies - he wouldn't so he sold them.

My recollection is that Laurie was told he had to wait FIVE years, not just one.

jstriebel wrote:

arch_genesis wrote: They wanted him to wait another year before he moved the Grizzlies - he wouldn't so he sold them.

My recollection is that Laurie was told he had to wait FIVE years, not just one.

It was one, they moved to Memphis the next year. That was after 6 seasons in Vancouver. Laurie bought the team just before it's 5th season.

He would have been a bad owner too and for all we know would have ended in the Grizzlies leaving St. Louis as well.

arch_genesis wrote:

jstriebel wrote:

arch_genesis wrote: They wanted him to wait another year before he moved the Grizzlies - he wouldn't so he sold them.

My recollection is that Laurie was told he had to wait FIVE years, not just one.

It was one, they moved to Memphis the next year. That was after 6 seasons in Vancouver. Laurie bought the team just before it's 5th season.

He would have been a bad owner too and for all we know would have ended in the Grizzlies leaving St. Louis as well.

I know they moved to Memphis the next year. That's what seemed so unfair about the whole thing.

I'm not saying I'm right, but that's how I clearly remember it.

Here's an article from 1999 between when Laurie had a purchase agreement and before he went before the NBA Board of Governors.

It states that contractually the Grizzlies couldn't leave Vancouver until after the 2000-01 season, but specifically quotes then Suns owner Jerry Colangelo as saying he and other owners will push for a significant amount of time and that two years isn't nearly enough.

http://static.espn.go.com/nba/news/1999 ... 34094.html

Colangelo declined to give a specific amount of time, saying only that if anybody suggested a "year or two, I'd say, heck no. It has to be something that's significant."

Colangelo said he couldn't speak for the league or other owners, but he added: "It may be some of us feel strongly and would request certain provisions."

I think Laurie was being required to wait much more than one year. And that's what made it so ridiculous when the NBA caved the very next year and let them move to Memphis.

Anyone knowledgeable about Trademarks?

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield ... ugxqh.2.19

The Spirits of St. Louis trademark is still live, and owned by the NBA, but what I find most interesting is that it was filed on April 9th, 1993.

The Toronto Raptors were awarded expansion September 30th, 1993. The Vancouver Grizzlies, February 14th, 1994. Kiel Center broke ground December 14th, 1992.

Did we miss out on NBA expansion? I know the Silna Brothers TV deal only recently got settled (and one brother died) but they did always want to own an NBA team. Might this have been it?

I imagine pursuing the NFL screwed everything up. I would have taken the Spirits and Scottrade Center over the Dome and the Rams or Stallions anyday. It's too bad, I've got a Marvin Barnes #24 Spirits jersey in my closet right now. Those jerseys are so nice too, they would easily be top 5 in the NBA today. Jayson Tatum would be coming home next year.

shadrach wrote: . . . Around that time, rumor had it among some local sport business people that once the Billikins had their own arena and opened up Saavis (Scottrade), an NBA team would be a slam dunk. But that didn't happen.

You mean the Kiel Center?

At least we are on the rumored expansion list.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2016/10/14/ ... e-in-play/


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/with- ... ve-cities/

^ Have to agree, its either mess with Seattle or set the groundwork for Clippers to head north and offer another ownership group a shot at the LA market while making sure any new ownership that comes to the table has some healthy competition to up the ante.

I do think a St Louis NHL/NBA/Scottrade ownership group does make sense and pretty much falls in line with Blues looking at Scottrade upgrades tied in with a MLS stadium funding - you pretty much cover the year with MLB/MLS season and a NBA/NHL Season and a NFL TV season for those who want their football fix while spending a fraction on Scottrade upgrades/MLS stadium vs. what it was going to keep Rams in town. However, Not sure you will have much of a chance St. Louis would have at a consistently good NBA/MLS teams as your corporate/tv dollars will got to Cardinals/Blues first. Just look at Denver. Stan K collects a check, son gainfully employed and sport teams are average at best.

We'd need a multiBillionaire champion and a new arena. I don't see it happening.

moorlander wrote:We'd need a multiBillionaire champion and a new arena. I don't see it happening.

I don't think a team is coming here. But, were one to consider it, or were the league to consider expansion, having two potential tenants would make either a major renovation of ScotTrade or planning its eventual replacement more palatable than doing so for something only used by the Blues.

The current home of the Blues needs to be upgraded. As long as you're already doing renovation, why not configure it so it to be more attractive to a potential NBA team? While having an older facility isn't ideal, I don't think it's a deal-killer.

The CBS Sports article says of St. Louis "They just lost the Rams, so there's a gap there, but that also likely makes the market less appealing." I completely disagree that losing the Rams makes the city less appealing to the NBA to anyone who pays any attention to how that whole situation played out. But the first part is valid; there's a gap here that can be filled, and IMO the NBA would be wise to at least kick the tires if they really are considering expansion.

-RBB

dweebe wrote:

rbb wrote:

moorlander wrote:We'd need a multiBillionaire champion and a new arena. I don't see it happening.

I don't think a team is coming here. But, were one to consider it, or were the league to consider expansion, having two potential tenants would make either a major renovation of ScotTrade or planning its eventual replacement more palatable than doing so for something only used by the Blues.

The current home of the Blues needs to be upgraded. As long as you're already doing renovation, why not configure it so it to be more attractive to a potential NBA team? While having an older facility isn't ideal, I don't think it's a deal-killer.

The CBS Sports article says of St. Louis "They just lost the Rams, so there's a gap there, but that also likely makes the market less appealing." I completely disagree that losing the Rams makes the city less appealing to the NBA to anyone who pays any attention to how that whole situation played out. But the first part is valid; there's a gap here that can be filled, and IMO the NBA would be wise to at least kick the tires if they really are considering expansion.

-RBB

Scottrade wont work for an NHL and NBA team due to it's small size. Per wikipedia Scottrade Center has 655,000 sq ft. Other arenas with both NBA and NHL teams:
United Center in Chicago: 960,000 sq ft
Staples Center in LA: 950,000 sq ft
American Airlines Center in Dallas: 840,000 sq ft
TD Garden in Boston: 755,000 sq ft
Verizon Center in DC: 1,000,000 sq ft (Same age as Scotrade and they're talking about a new arena in the suburbs)
Wells Fargo Center: 780,000 sq ft

So St. Louis would need to drop $600,000,000+ on a new arena or some massive renovation of the current arena that included taking the current Kiel parking garage and adding onto there.

Hmm, that's the first time I've heard that ScotTrade is too small to hold two teams. What would require the additional square footage? It already has four locker rooms, maybe team equipment storage? Perhaps the adjacent Peabody (a rare setup amongst sports arenas) could contribute some of its space, if any was available.

They're talking about replacing the Verizon Center because it's a dump; Nobody's talking about replacing the United Center currently, and it's the same age as Kiel/Savvis/ScotTrade. I would think that it's attached to the Opera house would mean renovation (and maybe expansion) would be considered before replacement, but that's pure speculation.

A remodel/renovation is absolutely necessary, and that's true whether an NBA team lands here or not. But an estimate of $600+ million seems a bit on the high side; recent nba and/or NHL stadiums have been built in roughly the $300M range, though there are outliers like the new Red Wings development that includes constructions of offices and shops adjacent to the arena. You can do a lot for a lot less than that, especially if you're renovating the existing center - which is still feasible IMO.

-RBB

I would disagree on the arena capacity. I can't imagine that an NBA couldn't train outside of the arena, since they need hardwood, weight rooms, etc, the facility does not have to be the size of say an NFL team's facility. Hey, Rams Park could be redone for an NBA team!
Of course the huge cities like Dallas, Chicago and others, have way more capacity. At the same time, if you compare the Scottrade Center to the following markets, we are very comparable. (some smaller markets, but STL is a mid-market)
-Memphis: Just over 18K
-Portland-Just over 19K
-OKC- Just over 18K
-Charlotte- Just over 19K

I know those cities do not have duel tenants, but again, training can be done offsite and they could play games at Scottrade. I know there could be some scheduling hassles, but I think that can be overcome. The Billikens used play along side the Blues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... ion_arenas

I think one major thing that really hurts STL, is the fact that we are currently a slow growth city and articles like the STL Biz Journal put out last week, predict us to have "terrible growth" through 2040. The NBA will at least want a modest growth city and they seem to prefer growing cities with 1 or no competing pro team in town... ie... Memphis, OKC & Charlotte.

I think with some renovations, Scottrade would be fine. I would prefer a separate ownership group that does not dilute the money that the Blues have to spend. While an NBA team may dilute the fanbase (casual fans) between the Blues and Spirits of St. Louis 2, I think STL has proven it will support a committed franchise. (Committed to winning and the community)