Reallly?downtown2007 wrote: Downtown Clayton is a ghost town after 3pm and almost the entire weekend.
Hopefully the influx of new residents and construction will finally get some more street activity on some of the dead blocks.
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Hopefully the influx of new residents and construction will finally get some more street activity on some of the dead blocks.
I know it has been discussed but what of the corner of Clayton and Hanley roads and the old Schnucks?
Nothing like an frumpy aging building with stained paper covered windows to welcome one to Clayton Missouri.
Nothing like an frumpy aging building with stained paper covered windows to welcome one to Clayton Missouri.
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Multiple places are reporting sales down 30-40%. Jennifer's Pharmacy is done. And big one is ready to fall. Don't shoot the messenger.moorlander wrote:Reallly?downtown2007 wrote: Downtown Clayton is a ghost town after 3pm and almost the entire weekend.
Hopefully the influx of new residents and construction will finally get some more street activity on some of the dead blocks.
downtown2007 wrote:Multiple places are reporting sales down 30-40%. Jennifer's Pharmacy is done. And a big one is ready to fall. Don't shoot the messenger.moorlander wrote:Reallly?downtown2007 wrote: Downtown Clayton is a ghost town after 3pm and almost the entire weekend.
Hopefully the influx of new residents and construction will finally get some more street activity on some of the dead blocks.
Clayton is arguably worse than many places in the region, including Downtown. I've never seen the nightlife scene in Clayton so dead as i have recently. The only busy bars in Clayton now are Napoli, Barcelona and sometimes Fields. Wheelhouse downtown killed the one in Clayton. The biggest thing that hurt Clayton bars is the dumb as F farmers market every Thursday in the summer; why they thought there would be crossover between people buying Kale and getting drinks at the bars for happy hour is beyond me. Over-aggressive policing tactics around the bars. Clayton cops actually sit in the middle of Central and watch people leave bars. Is this Russia? Clayton needs to be more worried about it's retail than it seems to be..
Clayton is arguably worse than many places in the region, including Downtown. I've never seen the nightlife scene in Clayton so dead as i have recently. The only busy bars in Clayton now are Napoli, Barcelona and sometimes Fields. Wheelhouse downtown killed the one in Clayton. The biggest thing that hurt Clayton bars is the dumb as F farmers market every Thursday in the summer; why they thought there would be crossover between people buying Kale and getting drinks at the bars for happy hour is beyond me. Over-aggressive policing tactics around the bars. Clayton cops actually sit in the middle of Central and watch people leave bars. Is this Russia? Clayton needs to be more worried about it's retail than it seems to be..
Clayton's retail and nightlife are pretty moribund. But I think they're aware of it and doing what they can to stabilize and improve. While nothing has broken ground, Clayton a solid mixed-use development pipeline, at least one of which is explicitly transit-oriented. Some (including the owner of The Wine Merchant) have hinted at an impending Centene Phase II. Also, Clayton has adopted a comprehensive development plan focused on increasing density and walkability.jcity wrote:Clayton needs to be more worried about it's retail than it seems to be..
It's arguable whether all of the planned developments will help Clayton's retail and nightlife (i.e. replacing the World News corner or adding another monolithic Centene Plaza). But Clayton's basic thesis of increased residential density (much of which is geared toward a younger demographic) and a focus on transit access (at least for one development) is sound. It might not be the same nightlife draw as Downtown, The Loop, or The Grove, but 600+ additional apartments and more office employees would certainly help.
Also, Opus's plan to redevelop/reactivate the western half of Meramec between Forsyth & Maryland - the most important retail block in DT Clayton - could help the area's energy and patronage.
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from Winter 2013...after dinner guy is walking home in Clayton, falls and injuries himself...nobody around to help and he freezes to death in middle of clayton....
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... eb7bd.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... eb7bd.html
Yes, what is the reason?sirshankalot wrote:True_dope wrote:ad much as i love Clayton why it seems they are getting all the new stuff and downtown has not seen anything new?
You really need an answer to this?
At the end of the day it boils down to rental rates. Rents are high enough in Clayton (and the CWE) to justify new construction. That's not the case for DT.
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^ Very true... but the critical question is why aren't rents supporting new construction projects? Something went off the rails a bit the past few years such that we aren't seeing downtown residential where it should be vis a vis peers.
(As usual, I separate BPV from the rest of the market as I think it is atypical and should already be well underway with residential.)
(As usual, I separate BPV from the rest of the market as I think it is atypical and should already be well underway with residential.)
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Are you sure rates aren't as high downtown? I am not sure there is much of a difference between the 3.wabash wrote:At the end of the day it boils down to rental rates. Rents are high enough in Clayton (and the CWE) to justify new construction. That's not the case for DT.
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^ Overall average market rate rents may not be vastly different between the three sub-markets, but it is the luxury end you want to focus on.... Tower @OPOP offers a premium product but I highly doubt the rental rates and pace of leasing are where they need to be to induce more new construction. Pretty disappointing. I could be wrong, but I bet Citywalk and the OPUS tower will be charging a higher rent and leasing units faster.
(btw, I think only one condo is available at CWE's Park East tower and is listing in the $500's.)
(btw, I think only one condo is available at CWE's Park East tower and is listing in the $500's.)
Exactly. At the very top end of the market (which any new project would be charging) CWE and Clayton have higher rents per square foot. Clayton on the Park, York House, and Chase Park charge more than .400 or OPOP.roger wyoming II wrote:it is the luxury end you want to focus on
^ Have to agree with most of the comments. Lets not forget that you can still add units downtown in Railway, Chemical and Jeff Arms building among others including the Millenium converting to residential. As a developer you won't get the best rent but the buildings are already up and historic/brownfield/market tax credits are still alive and well. Downtown still has a ton of space that can be filled at much lower cost and at much lower rents without new construction. Tough for new construction to compete especially when you go online and see some great floors plans coming online in the Arcade.
Where as Clayton essentially requires new construction and CWE is getting to the point of infill needing a price point as the SLU market has been addressed in a rather quick manner (thinking of recent lofts, apartment as well as SLU's planned construction). In my mind, the competing markets are Clayton and CWE. I think it will be interesting once The Crossings goes up who will get the next project under construction or even if another one happens. Will the Tri in Clayon be financed? Will Montgomery bank finally break ground in Clayton? Will Koplar/Koman/Clayco will put something together quickly in CWE on Koplar family's prime real estate. Will Cortex surprise a few people soon?
I think the real disappointment for downtown is that if their is one place in the city that could support new high rise residential construction that could also attract buyers outside the metro area is BPV. I think you got two other spots with real potential, Koman's side lot in the Cupple's warehouse and or new construction above a garage as part of the old Muni courts bldg. development. But still, BPV is the disappointment for downtown.
In the meantime, waiting for an underdog announcement from Drury family for something substantial on the landing. Maybe a surprise Class A office space in addition to residential/new hotel rooms. However, that is probably pushing it.
Where as Clayton essentially requires new construction and CWE is getting to the point of infill needing a price point as the SLU market has been addressed in a rather quick manner (thinking of recent lofts, apartment as well as SLU's planned construction). In my mind, the competing markets are Clayton and CWE. I think it will be interesting once The Crossings goes up who will get the next project under construction or even if another one happens. Will the Tri in Clayon be financed? Will Montgomery bank finally break ground in Clayton? Will Koplar/Koman/Clayco will put something together quickly in CWE on Koplar family's prime real estate. Will Cortex surprise a few people soon?
I think the real disappointment for downtown is that if their is one place in the city that could support new high rise residential construction that could also attract buyers outside the metro area is BPV. I think you got two other spots with real potential, Koman's side lot in the Cupple's warehouse and or new construction above a garage as part of the old Muni courts bldg. development. But still, BPV is the disappointment for downtown.
In the meantime, waiting for an underdog announcement from Drury family for something substantial on the landing. Maybe a surprise Class A office space in addition to residential/new hotel rooms. However, that is probably pushing it.
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Looks like Village Green is charging a bit above $2 per sq. ft. on average for its new building just off FPP in the Central West End City Apartments, which I believe is around what is needed to justify quality new construction.... looks like only a handful of the 88 units are available and I'm pretty sure VG is happy with the results.
Downtown, the Tower @ OPOP lists rates beginning at around $1.50 per sq. ft. for studios and $1.75 per sq. ft. for 1 bedrooms (although these may be for lower floors with pricing going up from there). With free parking and some pretty nice amenities included, it seems like a bargain.... as someone else here mentioned I think that pricing is only made possible because UrbanStreet was able to buy the core building on the cheap from Roberts Bros. before finishing the building off. Hopefully leasing is picking up there and the Arcade will fill up its market rate units fast.
Downtown, the Tower @ OPOP lists rates beginning at around $1.50 per sq. ft. for studios and $1.75 per sq. ft. for 1 bedrooms (although these may be for lower floors with pricing going up from there). With free parking and some pretty nice amenities included, it seems like a bargain.... as someone else here mentioned I think that pricing is only made possible because UrbanStreet was able to buy the core building on the cheap from Roberts Bros. before finishing the building off. Hopefully leasing is picking up there and the Arcade will fill up its market rate units fast.
Thanks for the updates Moorlander. Very helpful for those of us on the outside of the pay wall.
Good to hear the Vanguard is on track, and that the Maryland elementary town homes are still pushing forward (against plenty of push back). Was there any mention of the Opus project on N. Meramec? That would round out the mid-rise projects.
Hopefully there's some traction on at least one of the high rises in 2015. I continue to be perplexed by the Montgomery team's release rendering and disappear approach.
Good to hear the Vanguard is on track, and that the Maryland elementary town homes are still pushing forward (against plenty of push back). Was there any mention of the Opus project on N. Meramec? That would round out the mid-rise projects.
Hopefully there's some traction on at least one of the high rises in 2015. I continue to be perplexed by the Montgomery team's release rendering and disappear approach.
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wabash wrote:Thanks for the updates Moorlander. Very helpful for those of us on the outside of the pay wall.
Good to hear the Vanguard is on track, and that the Maryland elementary town homes are still pushing forward (against plenty of push back). Was there any mention of the Opus project on N. Meramec? That would round out the mid-rise projects.
Hopefully there's some traction on at least one of the high rises in 2015. I continue to be perplexed by the Montgomery team's release rendering and disappear approach.
The article mentions that there are four apartment projects in various stages of development. The remaining paragraphs only mentioned 3 and Opus was the odd man out.
I posted an update on the OPUS project in the project thread. Nothing major bu it appears to be moving forward. I'm really excited about this one.wabash wrote:Thanks for the updates Moorlander. Very helpful for those of us on the outside of the pay wall.
Was there any mention of the Opus project on N. Meramec? That would round out the mid-rise projects.
Clayton put out an RFP for the parking lot at the northeast corner of Brentwood and Forsyth and received 4 proposals. Hopefully the winning proposal will be announced soon.
They also are requeste proposals for the parking lot at Wydown and Hanley (which I'd prefer remain parking) and the old Clayton police hq on Central Ave. near the Metro Station (a great location for a highrise).
They also are requeste proposals for the parking lot at Wydown and Hanley (which I'd prefer remain parking) and the old Clayton police hq on Central Ave. near the Metro Station (a great location for a highrise).
What's going on with Clayton development?
Last winter and this spring the development pipeline seemed really strong, with The Crossing, Vanguard Clayton, Montgomery Tower, Opus N. Central, Maryland Elementary Townhouses, and murmurings of Centene Phase II. Maybe I'm not up to date on some of their statuses, but it seems that things have significantly slowed and/or failed to launch.
Has The Crossing/212 S. Meramec started construction yet? Has demo started for Vanguard Clayton or Opus N. Central yet? Have the Maryland Elementary Townhouses been killed off by the NIMBY's? The Montgomery Tower seems to be in an endless state of proposal purgatory - with the developers unwilling to pull the trigger on any offered concept. At this point I'm thinking we might actually see a Centene Phase II (which hasn't even offered a proposal/rendering yet) before anything else comes on line.
The delays can't be chalked up to regional stagnation, as the CWE continues to add projects to its pipeline and break actual ground and go vertical on major investments. The Arcade - which was supposed to be a nightmare to structure and finance, and I'm sure no peach to remediate and redevelop - may go from announcement to completion before most if not all of the Clayton proposals get off the drawing board.
This all begs the question, what's going on with Clayton development? Am I off the mark here? It seems strange that so many seeming viable and attractive projects - some by credible developers with strong track records - aren't moving at a faster pace.
Last winter and this spring the development pipeline seemed really strong, with The Crossing, Vanguard Clayton, Montgomery Tower, Opus N. Central, Maryland Elementary Townhouses, and murmurings of Centene Phase II. Maybe I'm not up to date on some of their statuses, but it seems that things have significantly slowed and/or failed to launch.
Has The Crossing/212 S. Meramec started construction yet? Has demo started for Vanguard Clayton or Opus N. Central yet? Have the Maryland Elementary Townhouses been killed off by the NIMBY's? The Montgomery Tower seems to be in an endless state of proposal purgatory - with the developers unwilling to pull the trigger on any offered concept. At this point I'm thinking we might actually see a Centene Phase II (which hasn't even offered a proposal/rendering yet) before anything else comes on line.
The delays can't be chalked up to regional stagnation, as the CWE continues to add projects to its pipeline and break actual ground and go vertical on major investments. The Arcade - which was supposed to be a nightmare to structure and finance, and I'm sure no peach to remediate and redevelop - may go from announcement to completion before most if not all of the Clayton proposals get off the drawing board.
This all begs the question, what's going on with Clayton development? Am I off the mark here? It seems strange that so many seeming viable and attractive projects - some by credible developers with strong track records - aren't moving at a faster pace.
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It looks like the Vanguard project has gotten all of their approvals from the city.
The Opus project is going back in front of the ARB and BOA before the middle of the month. This note was added to the Calendar:
"A. 25 North Central Avenue – Subdivision Plat PC
Consideration of a request submitted by Joe Downs, Opus Development Company, LLC, owner under contract, for a major subdivision plat to consolidate five existing lots measuring 31,942 square feet, and provides for an 800 square foot right-of-way dedication to the City along the southern alley. The same plat was approved by the Board of Aldermen on June 9, 2015 but was not recorded within the required 30 days."
212 Meramec - Buildings demolished, construction fence erected, heavy equipment on site, looks like they are still working on foundation.
The Opus project is going back in front of the ARB and BOA before the middle of the month. This note was added to the Calendar:
"A. 25 North Central Avenue – Subdivision Plat PC
Consideration of a request submitted by Joe Downs, Opus Development Company, LLC, owner under contract, for a major subdivision plat to consolidate five existing lots measuring 31,942 square feet, and provides for an 800 square foot right-of-way dedication to the City along the southern alley. The same plat was approved by the Board of Aldermen on June 9, 2015 but was not recorded within the required 30 days."
212 Meramec - Buildings demolished, construction fence erected, heavy equipment on site, looks like they are still working on foundation.
^Thanks for the thorough update. Good to hear many of the projects are still in the works. Hopefully there's more earth being turned and concrete being poured soon.
No noticeable progress in several weeks that I can see. Foundation work does not seem to have started. Only a large hole full of water...moorlander wrote:212 Meramec - Buildings demolished, construction fence erected, heavy equipment on site, looks like they are still working on foundation.