I could be mistaken, but I would imagine the early close time is what makes it affordable to employ enough security guards to watch the gardens after dark. If they kept it open later, they'd need to employ more guards. And without guards, it becomes Woodstock for Vagrants, like that one park at Locust and 14th.rbeedee wrote:I went downtown for the 4th of July to see the fireworks on the riverfront. Since the Metro is always packed for hours after the show my friends (some of whom were visiting the city on vacation) and I stayed downtown for a few hours, and I thought downtown missed some opportunities to sell itself to one of the biggest crowds it sees. Culinaria, for example, could have moved a ton of gelato if it stayed open past the usual closing time.
What was worse was that Citygarden shut down pretty early. I know the park officially closes at ten but I've been to Citygarden later than that other nights and the guards are usually pretty accommodating. My friends and I wandered in just before 11 to show it off to some out-of-towners and the fountains/lights were off and we were told that we weren't allowed to sit on the rock wall and eat our ice cream. Citygarden is one of the jewels of downtown St. Louis, it's a shame the hours weren't adjusted for this special occasion so it could be shown off to all those visitors milling about waiting for trains/traffic to clear up.
They had two security guards working, and one per block seems like it would be enough to control the crowds while keeping people from trying to sleep there. Even if it's not, though, I think it would be worth the expense to hire an extra guard or two to keep the park open later on special occasions when there will be thousands of visitors downtown; if it's too expensive, maybe they can organize some sort of volunteer "Friends of Citygarden" to help out. The downtown area still has a bad reputation to many people who aren't familiar with the progress of the past few years, and since Citygarden is a great feature of downtown I think it's a shame not to show it off to the thousands (tens of thousands?) of people milling around downtown after the show waiting for the trains to clear out a bit.rawest1 wrote:I could be mistaken, but I would imagine the early close time is what makes it affordable to employ enough security guards to watch the gardens after dark. If they kept it open later, they'd need to employ more guards. And without guards, it becomes Woodstock for Vagrants, like that one park at Locust and 14th.
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^ Absolutely. One challenge is that this is effectively private land in that the security guards are hired by a private organization. If they were City of St. Louis park rangers perhaps they would exercise more discretion. Then again, maybe not... I'm in Cincinnati this week and hope to find time to check out Washington Park here - roughly the same size and budget as City Garden, but quite different in execution. With even more luck, I'll have time to write up a comparison of the two.
I'd never heard of Washington Park so I looked it up. Based on their website it reminds me of what's called for in the [latest] Gateway Mall master plan. It'd be interesting to see what your take is after a first-hand visit, hopefully you write it up!
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My wife and I had dinner here before the Rams Preseason game. We ate outdoors. With the nice weather it was very pleasant to dine next to the sounds of the waterfall. Service was excellent and the food (sandwiches) is fast and inexpensive. We had a cup of Chili and a turkey and cheese sandwich. Oddly, they were out of draft Bud Light, maybe because there was a baseball game that afternoon. Many tables outside were in occupied with other customers, but I'd say the place was only about half full. I don't think a lot of sport fans think of this place, but it a good place to go before or after football or baseball games, and is right next to where we usually park for football.
I think they have a horrible name in terms of marketing their product. wouldn't be surprised if they changed the name soon.
I'm actually going to check them out for the first time hopefully today... Even though I am there multiple times a week. It is just something in my brain that says, What would I want chili when it is 100 degrees. I know they serve other items, but I still can't get past the chili aspect.
I'm actually going to check them out for the first time hopefully today... Even though I am there multiple times a week. It is just something in my brain that says, What would I want chili when it is 100 degrees. I know they serve other items, but I still can't get past the chili aspect.
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^ I was there for lunch on a Sunday about a month ago. Only 3 tables were occupied, despite the many families playing in City Garden's water features. I'm skeptical that this place will survive the winter. Maybe its just not a good spot for a restaurant, especially considering the on set of food trucks? What else could the space be used for? Special events and an art gallery seem obvious, but underwhelming.
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^Or maybe you just need something that is a draw as opposed to blending in with virtually any other restaurant/eatery in the city or county. I understand the disdain for nationally recognized chains, but sometimes the name is necessary for a location to work.
Apparently this would mean St. Louis has no art, theatre, or culinary scene (See prior pages), but I really think this space just needs something that everyone knows such as a Shake Shack or an In and Out Burger (there are talks of them considering franchising West). Get something in the space that will put the asses in the seats, so to speak. No one is headed there for Joe's Chili Bowl, but I would be willing to bet the location would be dynamite for either of the two names I mentioned above. (Yes, obviously they are longshots)
Apparently this would mean St. Louis has no art, theatre, or culinary scene (See prior pages), but I really think this space just needs something that everyone knows such as a Shake Shack or an In and Out Burger (there are talks of them considering franchising West). Get something in the space that will put the asses in the seats, so to speak. No one is headed there for Joe's Chili Bowl, but I would be willing to bet the location would be dynamite for either of the two names I mentioned above. (Yes, obviously they are longshots)
It does sit right above the Metrolink line. Maybe push the platform south a block, dig down and allow people to enter/exit from this corner as well as those on Olive?south compton wrote:Maybe its just not a good spot for a restaurant, especially considering the on set of food trucks? What else could the space be used for? Special events and an art gallery seem obvious, but underwhelming.
Personally, I think the name "Joe's Chili Bowl" is fine IF it's not just another standard American-fare diner. You can have a simple name like that, but aspire -- almost cheekily -- to something unique/different. Instead of basic ground beef, maybe you offer alligator chili as an option. Something like that; something that makes it "known" for something. Something where people will say "meet me at Joe's."
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^Might get sued by a certain Crab Shack though. That couldn't be good for biz 
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LOVE this idea.Kevin B wrote: It does sit right above the Metrolink line. Maybe push the platform south a block, dig down and allow people to enter/exit from this corner as well as those on Olive?
This addition to the original roster of sculptures has quickly become my favorite:
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Even from Market it sticks out from the crowd:
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Even from Market it sticks out from the crowd:
I wonder what are the plans for the asphalt streets? Go forward and close the streets. Dig up the asphalt and extend the garden with new green spaces, sculptures, water fountains/features and a picnic area.
^Cool pics, BTW.
^Cool pics, BTW.
Why the big suit? #talkingheadswabash wrote:This addition to the original roster of sculptures has quickly become my favorite:
Even from Market it sticks out from the crowd:
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FWIW - I think the street there and think it should be open more often.
I don't know. I say close 9th and keep 8th, 10th and 11th open.
I tend to be concerned about the kiddos and pedestrians potentially mixing with reckless drivers. Plus, 9th street have been closed since Citygarden opened. Further, most new civic parks built across the country - like Citygarden - do not have open streets going through them. Last, part of reason for the highway lid is for pedestrians and visitors to a have a direct crossing for pedestrians.
Remember what lead to this bridge going up at the St. Louis Zoo? A drunk driver.
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I tend to be concerned about the kiddos and pedestrians potentially mixing with reckless drivers. Plus, 9th street have been closed since Citygarden opened. Further, most new civic parks built across the country - like Citygarden - do not have open streets going through them. Last, part of reason for the highway lid is for pedestrians and visitors to a have a direct crossing for pedestrians.
Remember what lead to this bridge going up at the St. Louis Zoo? A drunk driver.
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^ the highway lid is a bad idea - a ped bridge at a zoo in a park is one thing, but continuing to close downtown streets is a bad idea. I'm all for closing 9th when it's nice out and City Garden has a lot of people in it.
I agree that all N-S streets through CityGarden/Gateway Mall should be kept open -- except for the occasional closure for food truck days, art shows, etc.
It's important to remember that CityGarden exists within a City -- a downtown business district, no less. Pedestrians, bicyclists, cars, buses, horse-drawn carriages, Segways, etc. all are a vital part of the motion of a city, and all should coexist as a function of the City. To continue cordoning each mode off from the other (see: terminating Memorial Drive) is a slight to the way the City's supposed to be.
Take care of pedestrians by providing exceptional sidewalks, paths and (most importantly) intersections/crosswalks that respect and encourage their presence. Similarly, drivers should be encouraged to slow down, drive smart, park on the street and get out to experience downtown, adding positive movement/flow downtown.
It's important to remember that CityGarden exists within a City -- a downtown business district, no less. Pedestrians, bicyclists, cars, buses, horse-drawn carriages, Segways, etc. all are a vital part of the motion of a city, and all should coexist as a function of the City. To continue cordoning each mode off from the other (see: terminating Memorial Drive) is a slight to the way the City's supposed to be.
Take care of pedestrians by providing exceptional sidewalks, paths and (most importantly) intersections/crosswalks that respect and encourage their presence. Similarly, drivers should be encouraged to slow down, drive smart, park on the street and get out to experience downtown, adding positive movement/flow downtown.
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I wonder whether there has been talk of traffic calming strategies like cobble stones, speed bumps, etc. If that street was paved like Laclede's Landing is paved, then they could probably keep the street open all the time.
I do understand all of those points made, and at one time I wouldn't have advised that 9th St. be closed, but 9th has been closed since 2009 so why not keep it closed? Or at least start testing how traffic would work in the area. The street barriers do not look bad, but they look "temporary" (i.e. incomplete) unlike Kiener Plaza. I guess I just like order, but in my opinion, the city needs to make a decision as what it's going to do with the street.
Here's an aerial of Dallas' Klyde Warren Park. Very similar aerial look to Citygarden. One street is closed. And for those that have never been to Dallas - traffic is HORRIFIC. They need every street open in downtown, but apparently an exception has been made by the city and planners of the park.
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Here's an aerial of Dallas' Klyde Warren Park. Very similar aerial look to Citygarden. One street is closed. And for those that have never been to Dallas - traffic is HORRIFIC. They need every street open in downtown, but apparently an exception has been made by the city and planners of the park.
Why not leave it closed. The added traffic capacity that would be provided by opening it is certainly not needed. I agree with making the appearance of the closure better looking...more permanent.
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^ Hits on a major problem across the city - no single street is justified by current traffic counts. But this means streets should be narrowed and made two-way, not closed. A city needs a grid to better serve visitors, retail, pedestrians and transit. There's a fundamental reason cities were founded on a grid and a reason they should stay that way.