How big a building would you need to build to justify such a land value?
NextSTL - Entry #4 What Should Be at Grand and Lafayette
https://nextstl.com/2021/12/entry-4-wha ... lafayette/
https://nextstl.com/2021/12/entry-4-wha ... lafayette/
- 2,419
I actually think something like that would be fantastic. Why can't we incorporate ugly necessities such as gas stations into our urban environment in ways such as this?
Why do they have to be these monolithic, space-consuming structures?
Why do they have to be these monolithic, space-consuming structures?
This one is a win win for both! I like this one!!quincunx wrote:NextSTL - Entry #4 What Should Be at Grand and Lafayette
https://nextstl.com/2021/12/entry-4-wha ... lafayette/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m under the belief that building anything directly above pumps is hard, if not impossible...
Anyone have examples?
Anyone have examples?
It could be like a 7 Eleven type business with no gasaddxb2 wrote:I’m under the belief that building anything directly above pumps is hard, if not impossible...
Anyone have examples?
… But you’re correct you can’t have residential and station at the same place! It goes off and you have people flying all over the place 
!!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- 2,419
I mean, I wouldn't want to be living right above a gasoline fire, so this probably isn't a winner.
But isn't QuikTrip trying out no-pump models in other markets? Why couldn't they try that at Grand/Lafayette? That stretch probably doesn't get the most foot traffic, but the area seems to have a ton of potential, and that kind of development might help spur more residential in the area.
But isn't QuikTrip trying out no-pump models in other markets? Why couldn't they try that at Grand/Lafayette? That stretch probably doesn't get the most foot traffic, but the area seems to have a ton of potential, and that kind of development might help spur more residential in the area.
That was my first thought. I couldn't find one even in Manhattan. Maybe if it was electric charging only?addxb2 wrote: ↑Dec 17, 2021I’m under the belief that building anything directly above pumps is hard, if not impossible...
Anyone have examples?
- 3,762
^ not to mention the benzene fumes. enjoy that balcony!
- 2,419
Why can't QuikTrip go to a model like 7-11?
Not every location needs pumps.
I'd love to see a QuikTrip convenience store downtown (sans pumps). If one were somewhat near Busch, could you imagine how well it would do on game days?
Not every location needs pumps.
I'd love to see a QuikTrip convenience store downtown (sans pumps). If one were somewhat near Busch, could you imagine how well it would do on game days?
- 337
QT began testing of a no fuel model back in 2016 in Atlanta per a quick google search.
https://csnews.com/quiktrip-debuts-non-fuel-store
Not sure how much time is needed to quantify if it’s successful or not but come on these would be way more popular than 7-11 based purely on cleanliness.
https://csnews.com/quiktrip-debuts-non-fuel-store
Not sure how much time is needed to quantify if it’s successful or not but come on these would be way more popular than 7-11 based purely on cleanliness.
- 2,419
I would think QT convenience stores would do really well here in St. Louis.
I don't think we urbanists would be that upset if we saw them pop up even in places like the Central West End. The convenience stores serve a purpose and can be extremely useful from time to time. I know that I use them pretty often.
I don't think we urbanists would be that upset if we saw them pop up even in places like the Central West End. The convenience stores serve a purpose and can be extremely useful from time to time. I know that I use them pretty often.
I could be mistaken but didn't the recent development at corner of Skinker and Delmar (kitty corner to Opus proposal) include a drive through for the pharmacy on ground level?
I'm pretty much voting for 4 the proposal/QT idea with the drive through Option. Talk about a killer idea for QT to try an urban format idea with new SSM hospital, neighborhood & SLU medical school all within a short work and if all else fails it sets up nice for a pharmacy as well or even an urban drive thru Burger King, so.
I'm pretty much voting for 4 the proposal/QT idea with the drive through Option. Talk about a killer idea for QT to try an urban format idea with new SSM hospital, neighborhood & SLU medical school all within a short work and if all else fails it sets up nice for a pharmacy as well or even an urban drive thru Burger King, so.
You're saying the possibility of a future "urban drive thru Burger King" is a reason to vote FOR this proposal?dredger wrote: ↑Dec 17, 2021I could be mistaken but didn't the recent development at corner of Skinker and Delmar (kitty corner to Opus proposal) include a drive through for the pharmacy on ground level?
I'm pretty much voting for 4 the proposal/QT idea with the drive through Option. Talk about a killer idea for QT to try an urban format idea with new SSM hospital, neighborhood & SLU medical school all within a short work and if all else fails it sets up nice for a pharmacy as well or even an urban drive thru Burger King, so.
A drive thru is awkward here as a clockwise traffic rotation is favored given that Lafayette is one-way west here, but the driver's side is on the left.
I'll make my thoughts short on these four since I don't everyone reading a book...
Option 1 by Dylan Kennedy
I like it. It seems to fit with the general massing and design of the area. However, if I were a developer who would develop this, I'd want to reduce the amount of retail space to where it only focuses on the first floor. Getting more apartments by having the second floor be apartments would be more ideal. If QT bought the property for $2 Million from SLU, then it's highly likely they'd sell it for more than that. So, it comes down to economics, and you need to factor in site acquisition into construction costs. With Mr. Kennedy's proposal, economics are stretched, but this could be something special if done right. You could build this with wood frame over a steel/concrete podium.
Option 2 by Elek Borrelli
This one I like because it's a bit unique. The angled facade and taller style would make this a pretty symbolic symbol for those getting off the highway there. It would also lead to having a 4th "big building" surrounding 44 as you have the buildings south of 44 west of grand, The Compton Hill Water Tower, Center for Social Justice, and this. This project also "welcomes" people to a revitalized series of neighborhoods. I also feel like this proposal is more feasible since it includes 120 apartments and 60 hotel rooms. You could build this with load bearing metal stud over a concrete podium.
Option 3 by Trivers Folks
I dislike this proposal for a number of reasons. 1: The large plaza out front just doesn't make that much sense to be since this is on Grand. 2: The street wall would be broken up by a courtyard. 3: For such short buildings, the lack of housing to spread the development cost out evenly makes this hard to develop. I like the work Trivers does, but this feels like a redesigned "Doorways on Jefferson" which isn't the most urban project in the world. You could build this out of wood.
Option 4 by Kara Clark
This one seems like a joke to appease both sides, and it just doesn't work. There is no way that this could be built. Kara Clark admits on Twitter that the gas pumps would push the fumes out to the highway side, which in my view would ruin the quality of life for folks who live on Lafayette. Not to mention that gas stations in the shadows (in this case, covered by a multi-family building in hidden on the backside) would likely breed suspicious activity. Now, an urban QT convenience store is fine since it has been tried in Atlanta but including gas pumps in a project like this is childish. This gives me reminders of that April Fool's joke of the QT/Walmart at Lindell and Kingshighway. Not to mention this is the only proposal where the submitter didn't hand draw or rendered up the ideas.
Final Thoughts
I'd give Elek Borrelli and Dylan Kennedy both "A+" for this, the Trivers Folks a "B-" and Kara Clark a "D". First place would be Borelli's, second would by Kennedy's, third would be Trivers Folks, and fourth would be Kara Clark. Borelli and Kennedy have bright futures ahead of them in the architecture world. I hope to see them have their designs built one day.
Option 1 by Dylan Kennedy
I like it. It seems to fit with the general massing and design of the area. However, if I were a developer who would develop this, I'd want to reduce the amount of retail space to where it only focuses on the first floor. Getting more apartments by having the second floor be apartments would be more ideal. If QT bought the property for $2 Million from SLU, then it's highly likely they'd sell it for more than that. So, it comes down to economics, and you need to factor in site acquisition into construction costs. With Mr. Kennedy's proposal, economics are stretched, but this could be something special if done right. You could build this with wood frame over a steel/concrete podium.
Option 2 by Elek Borrelli
This one I like because it's a bit unique. The angled facade and taller style would make this a pretty symbolic symbol for those getting off the highway there. It would also lead to having a 4th "big building" surrounding 44 as you have the buildings south of 44 west of grand, The Compton Hill Water Tower, Center for Social Justice, and this. This project also "welcomes" people to a revitalized series of neighborhoods. I also feel like this proposal is more feasible since it includes 120 apartments and 60 hotel rooms. You could build this with load bearing metal stud over a concrete podium.
Option 3 by Trivers Folks
I dislike this proposal for a number of reasons. 1: The large plaza out front just doesn't make that much sense to be since this is on Grand. 2: The street wall would be broken up by a courtyard. 3: For such short buildings, the lack of housing to spread the development cost out evenly makes this hard to develop. I like the work Trivers does, but this feels like a redesigned "Doorways on Jefferson" which isn't the most urban project in the world. You could build this out of wood.
Option 4 by Kara Clark
This one seems like a joke to appease both sides, and it just doesn't work. There is no way that this could be built. Kara Clark admits on Twitter that the gas pumps would push the fumes out to the highway side, which in my view would ruin the quality of life for folks who live on Lafayette. Not to mention that gas stations in the shadows (in this case, covered by a multi-family building in hidden on the backside) would likely breed suspicious activity. Now, an urban QT convenience store is fine since it has been tried in Atlanta but including gas pumps in a project like this is childish. This gives me reminders of that April Fool's joke of the QT/Walmart at Lindell and Kingshighway. Not to mention this is the only proposal where the submitter didn't hand draw or rendered up the ideas.
Final Thoughts
I'd give Elek Borrelli and Dylan Kennedy both "A+" for this, the Trivers Folks a "B-" and Kara Clark a "D". First place would be Borelli's, second would by Kennedy's, third would be Trivers Folks, and fourth would be Kara Clark. Borelli and Kennedy have bright futures ahead of them in the architecture world. I hope to see them have their designs built one day.
How long has the QT without pumps in Atlanta been open? Have they done any more like that?
BK is something I throw out but an urban design incorporating a drive thru for whoever makes use of it, whether it be Pharmacy and or QT, might help QT to pursue something along the lines of design submission #4. A example to reference is downtown where the Park Pacific development off Tucker incorporated a drive thru space at ground levelwabash wrote: ↑Dec 17, 2021You're saying the possibility of a future "urban drive thru Burger King" is a reason to vote FOR this proposal?dredger wrote: ↑Dec 17, 2021I could be mistaken but didn't the recent development at corner of Skinker and Delmar (kitty corner to Opus proposal) include a drive through for the pharmacy on ground level?
I'm pretty much voting for 4 the proposal/QT idea with the drive through Option. Talk about a killer idea for QT to try an urban format idea with new SSM hospital, neighborhood & SLU medical school all within a short work and if all else fails it sets up nice for a pharmacy as well or even an urban drive thru Burger King, so.
The other options for QT, plow forward w their typical gas station even if they feel litigation/bad publicity is necessary to make it happen and or put up for sale with an asking price most likely north of $2 million. Or take a bet on urban design/a willing developer to lease back the space and if their non gas convenience store doesn't perform well the developer might have space that is more appealing for future leases/other tenants
- 2,925
Quick comment... A great argument to contest the QT is to bring up the needs of emergency vehicles on this particular stretch of Grand. I'd be against any potential new development that, as a regular function of its tenants' business model, has irregularly high vehicle traffic. So, I don't like drive-thru's here (even if that could mean a Chick-Fil-A drive-thru closer to my home). I'd recommend that whatever candidate wins not have a drive-thru option. That said, I kinda like the idea of a convenience store QT could operate, but only as a component of something bigger.
Haven't seen one in the US, but here's a Korean building with a gas station at its base:
-RBB
Do any QTs in the area have drive thrus? What do they sell?
A long line like this would be a disaster in the league of the negatives of a gas station.
A long line like this would be a disaster in the league of the negatives of a gas station.
Here's a Mobil station in the base of a multi-story apartment building in Cambridge, MA. Google Maps
![]()
-RBB
-RBB