urbanSTL

We shouldn't just settle. No reason we can't ask for improvements so the neighborhood realizes it's max return. Strive for greatness and build it up to Manchester.

I don't think asking for an additional entrance on Manchester to the grocery store is asking too much

Especially when they are asking for millions in tax subsidies.

To be clear, I think this is a great project. I just had a specific disappointment, so that's what I posted. I'm really glad to see this level of investment.

But it'd be even better if they could get the details right.

I hear what you're all saying. And it's completely valid. I just think in these circumstances the perfect is too often the enemy of the good.

I agree that "we shouldn't just settle." But at some point you have to. You're not going to please everyone, and you don't want to discourage progressive, productive development. The question shouldn't be does this maximize return for the neighborhood, because different people have different goals and metrics for what that means. Also, you have to take incremental steps to what you want the neighborhood to be. Aventura was a step backward. This would be a step forward. The question should be: Does this improve the built environment and align with the community's goals, principles and identity in general. I think this achieves those broad criteria.

Sorry. I think between here and the Clayton Vanguard project I'm becoming a broken record. Maybe I'm getting more libertarian when it comes to property rights in my old age.

The difference, I think, between what is being expressed here and not letting "perfect be the enemy of good" is that I don't think anyone is saying "shut it down."

I certainly don't feel that way anyways. By all means, go forward with this project. But if there's the opportunity for constructive feedback and modification, than I'd like to see some tweaks.

I don't want them to abandon the project obviously, but if there are things wrong with it, we need to voice those concerns! We of course can't be TOO picky, but we can suggest improvements. The wall facing Manchester should be given priority. It is going to be the new face of the Grove from Vandeventer.

dweebe wrote:Now we're complaining about the placement of entries to a parking garage?

in fairness "we" were complaining about the placement of the retail entrances, which are a bit more important than the entrances to the parking garage.

They have a lot more 'edgy' design but I think something like this fits perfectly in St. Louis. The question I guess, is something like this too cwe-y for the grove?

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I don't think that would be out-of-plce in the Grove and actually would seem to compliment the older multi-story Chouteau Building across the street.

I agree that it would be a great fit, I'm just saying I can hear the naysayers already. A ton of pseudo-punks (hipsters really) down there who might gripe its not edgy enough.

As development pushes further toward Vandy and then up and down Vandy, do you think now would be a good time to implement a round-about at the Chouteau+Vandy intersection? Its awfully wide. I think a centerpiece fountain/statue could be an awesome neighborhood marker.

The Tower Grove Ave and Vandeventer intersection needs to be a roundabout as well

RuskiSTL wrote:

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I don't think that would be out-of-plce in the Grove and actually would seem to compliment the older multi-story Chouteau Building across the street.

I agree that it would be a great fit, I'm just saying I can hear the naysayers already. A ton of pseudo-punks (hipsters really) down there who might gripe its not edgy enough.

To be fair, we need more edgy architecture in St. Louis, and the Grove would be a great spot for it. I wouldn't complain if something like what's posted above were built, but I think it'd be awesome to see them push the boundaries a bit more.

RuskiSTL wrote:As development pushes further toward Vandy and then up and down Vandy, do you think now would be a good time to implement a round-about at the Chouteau+Vandy intersection? Its awfully wide. I think a centerpiece fountain/statue could be an awesome neighborhood marker.

This is an excellent idea. Once IKEA opens, Vandeventer is going to start getting a lot more traffic (people exiting I-44 to go to IKEA) and I think a round-about would work (and look) great at that intersection.

It looks like the gas station site at Sarah & Chouteau (where a parking garage with a small retail corner is planned) is currently for sale: Listing