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PostApr 27, 2006#101

^Of course. With my idea there'd be beachfront boardwalks and little surf shops and stuff! Plus it'd go all the way to Union Station, so you could surf the whole way there from the riverfront!



Seriously, though... San Antonio's river walk has been mentioned before. Whoever's in charge of this thing better take notes from that. I haven't been there before, but from pictures I've seen there is waterfront dining, stores, etc. With port St. Louis showing that people will want waterfront property, this thing could create at least 10 times downtown's available waterfront property!
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PostApr 28, 2006#102

trent wrote:That seems like an awful lot of work, when you could just move the tracks.


The original Baron and later HOK renderings showed a bigger lake and no railroad tracks.



But all the later renderings --



http://udcompetition.uli.org/images/Pha ... ayPlan.pdf



show some of the tracks crisscrossing the lake. So I assume someone decided the tracks have to stay in some form.



If the tracks have to stay on the North side, and we really want buildings and restaurants along the lake --- not grass, why don't they put the train tracks just north of the lake -- covered as the first floor under the high rise office and residential buildings. Then put a promenade along the south side of the tracks/buildings to form the North shore of the lake?

PostApr 28, 2006#103

Look at these picture of the totally artificial canal they built in downtown Oklahoma City. It runs right up to the new Minor League ballpark. It would be nice if Chouteau Lake ran along the ballpark. Notice the water taxi in one picture.



Picture



I think the canal was really inexpensive -- $32 millsion -- according to this link:



Canal link



I hear $ 1 billon for Choutea Lake. In OKC, their $32 million investment has attracted $2 billion. Several corporations are building along the canal, and Dell just chose OKC for one of its big service centers.



OKC is 1/5 the size of the St. Louis metro area. [They also just rebuilt their Airport Terminal -- even though the old one was newer that the one at Lambert.]
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PostApr 28, 2006#104

^As a courtesy to those of us that don't have four moniters next to each other, please don't post the entire text of the link in the future. I fixed it this time. Everyone should remember this.
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PostApr 29, 2006#105

Gary,



Thanks for the links, I actually have seen what they've done in OKC and it looks good. I'd like to see St. Louis do something similar. There is so much potential for this project to really tie everything in the city together if it's done right. But if it's not, it will just be a big fat waste of money. It could really be spectacular.
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PostMay 02, 2006#106

no offense Gary, but the canal area in OKC is what I hope does NOT happen in st louis. The fake water fall, "meandering" stream, just looked like Raging Rivers to me. It does look ok where the buildings are.. I just think st l can do better.
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PostMay 02, 2006#107

I think the White River State Park in Indianapolis may be a good model too...



White River State Park



Actually San Antonio RiverWalk, the OKC canal and White River are all very similar in width. What is done along the banks it how each is differentiated.
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PostMay 02, 2006#108

MattonArsenal wrote:I think the White River State Park in Indianapolis may be a good model too...



White River State Park



Actually San Antonio RiverWalk, the OKC canal and White River are all very similar in width. What is done along the banks it how each is differentiated.


When I was in Indy for about 4-5 months working on a project back in 96-97, I had an apartment along the canal. There's not much activity, mostly residential. But it was nice. Plus, I was only a few blocks from the CBD.
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PostMay 02, 2006#109

I think the Indianapolis picture is what St. Louis should try to avoid. Buildings should be built right up to the canal with balconies overlooking it and walkways crossing over it. Restaurants should have patios that almost but up to it save for a sidewalk. There could be paddle boat rentals like the boathouse at Forest Park and Union Station. Parts of it should be large enough that rowing teams use it. Otherwise it'll just look like a dressed up ditch... everyone will ignore it.
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PostMay 02, 2006#110

SoulardD wrote:I think the Indianapolis picture is what St. Louis should try to avoid. Buildings should be built right up to the canal with balconies overlooking it and walkways crossing over it. Restaurants should have patios that almost but up to it save for a sidewalk. There could be paddle boat rentals like the boathouse at Forest Park and Union Station. Parts of it should be large enough that rowing teams use it. Otherwise it'll just look like a dressed up ditch... everyone will ignore it.


What you're describing is the Milwaukee RiverWalk!





(Click each thumbnail to see larger)



I don't think there are paddle boat rentals though, but several boat-owners dock along the river here. There is an annual rowing competition called the Milwaukee River Challenge. Pere Marquette Park is on the western bank on the northern edge of the RiverWalk district (which is a free wifi hotspot also). There are several restaurants with patio seating that face the river, and of course the RiverWalk, which is the sidewalk along both banks. A variety of offices, condos/apartments and other businesses line the riverfront.



Milwaukee is a city that knows how to utilize their downtown water features, between the RiverWalk and the gorgeous lakefront (complete with festival park). Unfortunately, both the river and the lake have more than their fair share of pollution ... but that's what happens when waterways are heavily utilized for transportation and industry, historically.
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PostMay 02, 2006#111

How bout this?



http://www.bergsby.com/taani/copenhagen/DSCN2266.JPG
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PostMay 03, 2006#112



I think thats too "old world" we need to go for a "new urban" design. One that people from other cities say "I wish we had that" The row houses are nice, but the combination of office towers and residential mid-rises are missing. And I dont see cafes nor any real usage. Every bit should be utilized for the year round enjoyment of the people who use it and the betterment of the people who live and work there. NOT JUST TOURIST-y like river walk in San Antonio Tx.
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PostMay 03, 2006#113

I think the river walk in San Antonio and those in Milwaukee and Copenhagen are a good example of what they should do with the small river arm that is planned to sever off at about 7th and go into the Mississippi. That's what I was talking about months back, whenever this topic was discussed.



But along the lake, things should be different. I'd like to see some park space available to make it similar to the Grand Basin in forest park. I like sitting in the grass, overlooking the water.



Optimally, I'd like to line 64/40 with mid-highrise residential and office towers starting just west of the stadium, down to 14th. These should have a boardwalk type atmosphere on that side, with maybe one giant retail building that can serve as a boathouse/cafe type setting. On the other side, there should be greenspace. Setback from the greenspace should be kiosks and stuff, but Chouteau should be builtup more than anything, IMO. I like the plan as it looks now from the PDF above. But there is such a need for construction on a lot of those vacant lots along Chouteau.
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PostMay 03, 2006#114

With all of the examples, I am beginning to wonder how original of an idea this lake actually is.
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PostMay 03, 2006#115

It used to be a lake...or Mississippi Flood Runoff. But regardless, most of those other water settings are based around rivers. Much smaller rivers than what we have in the Mississippi, so it wouldn't work on our main river. But we can recreate it with the Chouteau Lake.
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PostMay 03, 2006#116

stlmike wrote:With all of the examples, I am beginning to wonder how original of an idea this lake actually is.


Your question reminded me of a quote from the article just posted under the Old travel article about St. Louis thread:


...All I mean is that St. Louis seems to be behind in taking action to improve herself...


Most cities seem like they've either engaged their waterfronts, or created artificial environments like some of the canals we've seen. The bad part about this is that when tourists come here they're looking for an environment like this, and we don't really have one. The good part is that we can look at all these examples and pick and choose the elements that work best for St. Louis.



I would also like to see a more park-like environment for most of the greenway, this gives downtown residents a place to jog, bike and recreate. For the more urban style canal, with buildings right up to the sidewalk, I think the Chouteau's Landing area is the best candidate for this, or roughly the area east of 7th as trent says above. This would end up looking much like the Milwaukee pictures. So we'd still have the cool urban canal part, without having to construct a faux-old town for the whole area, like the OKC picture.
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PostMay 04, 2006#117

stlmike wrote:With all of the examples, I am beginning to wonder how original of an idea this lake actually is.


From what I can see ? the idea of creating 'waterfront propery' in a underutilized area - isn?t original at all. Just because its not original doesn?t mean it?s an inherently bad idea ? but it does mean that in order to set yourself apart or to have an area worthy of being a destination in STL ? organizers have to be not only smart but very clever.



One thing our project has going for it is that it is SO CLOSE to downtown and downtown already has so much momentum. A lot of the other projects were built in areas that didn?t have the influx of people that Downtown STL has. If this project can be started in the next few years, and if it is done right I think we can blow away all the other projects and have cities around the world mention STL as the example of a place to strive for. (In my opinion that means as little railroad and parking lot frontage/visability as possible)
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PostMay 06, 2006#118

JCity wrote:no offense Gary, but the canal area in OKC is what I hope does NOT happen in st louis. The fake water fall, "meandering" stream, just looked like Raging Rivers to me. It does look ok where the buildings are.. I just think st l can do better.


I agree. They created the canal and dammed up the normally dry North Canadian River and renamed it the Oklahoma River, because OKC had very little water downtown anywhere. But it is amazing how those relatively cheap projects brought big developments to town, including a highly sought after new Dell service center.



Chouteau Lake could be a lot better than the OKC canals, and the response would be a lot bigger than we can probably imagine. A lot of cities now have flat water downtown for row boats, etc. Restoring Chouteau Pond would bring that and even more if we can link it to the Gateway Arch grounds somehow.



People are fascinated by the Mississippi River, and the fact that you can walk down to it and touch it here in St. Louis. That is what the Riverfront Project emphasized. So the combination of flat water (Chouteau Lake)matching other cities, and the new riverfront plan, make a powerful one-two punch that few cities could match.



Since all these little towns around us are putting up impressive attractions, we have to outdo them.
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PostMay 09, 2006#119

Gary Kreie wrote:I agree. They created the canal and dammed up the normally dry North Canadian River and renamed it the Oklahoma River, because OKC had very little water downtown anywhere. But it is amazing how those relatively cheap projects brought big developments to town, including a highly sought after new Dell service center.



Chouteau Lake could be a lot better than the OKC canals, and the response would be a lot bigger than we can probably imagine. A lot of cities now have flat water downtown for row boats, etc. Restoring Chouteau Pond would bring that and even more if we can link it to the Gateway Arch grounds somehow.


As a native of OKC I want to add my perspective. First, the North Canadian river was dry simply because of prior flood control measures. When the city was founded it was not a dry river. My entire lifetime it was this huge flood control area with barely any water. Now it is a stunning river thanks to the damns. One of the big firms in town and my brother's employer, Chesapke Energy, has just completed a new boat house which holds the boats for rowing competition. Competative rowing is something we could never do on the Mississippi River.



OKC's river project is not connected to the canal although they are very close at one point. The canal has two distinct sections -- one through the old warehouse area known as Bricktown and then more free flowing through what was just open land. In the years since it has been done new buildings continue to crop up along the water including the corporate HQ for Sonic and a new Toby Keith's I Love This Bar & Grill. It is not exactly urban in the strict sense but people do populate the area and walk from place to place. Not enough residential exists in the area but some is built to the North.



I love the idea of having a place for rowing. But, we should not build facilities that compete with Forest Park --- remember that expensive and large park that we are trying to figure out how to maintain. It has many great water features.



For us I think any new re-created water feature should be more urban in form just because it be more fitting for an area that has been urbanized for so many years.
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PostMay 10, 2006#120

^I don't think any of the lakes in Forest Park are big enough for competitive rowing.
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PostMay 11, 2006#121

I think he was more referring to the fact of a combined greenspace/waterfront aspect that is present in FP.
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PostJul 09, 2006#122

What is taking so long for this project to get off the ground? :!:
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PostJul 09, 2006#123

Well, first we need money...
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PostJul 10, 2006#124

...after all, its a VERY big, complex project involving many, many existing owners and uses. This one will take time, but it'll be worth it.
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PostJul 10, 2006#125

Ok. I first heard about this project in 2001 so it's been 5 years and thought I'd "see" progress by now.



thanks
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