urbanSTL

I wouldn't expect to see any real movement on this for another 4 years. I think if they start construction by 2010, it'll be early.

trent wrote:I wouldn't expect to see any real movement on this for another 4 years. I think if they start construction by 2010, it'll be early.

It's not even a done deal. Mr. Baron simply proposed it.

Actually, the Gateway Greenway Foundation or whatever they're called, has been buying up small patches of land in the area that the lake is proposed in. They've only completed a few deals, but it's been done.



Whether or not it happens is still debatable. I wouldn't give it very good odds, but there seems to be a lot of people that want this to happen, so you never know. My estimation was based upon when I would see any sort of movement on it. I will be surprised if they are able to start any sort of construction before 2010.

trent wrote:Actually, the Gateway Greenway Foundation or whatever they're called, has been buying up small patches of land in the area that the lake is proposed in. They've only completed a few deals, but it's been done.

Really? I did not know that. Any parcels of any signifigance?

trent wrote:Whether or not it happens is still debatable. I wouldn't give it very good odds, but there seems to be a lot of people that want this to happen, so you never know. My estimation was based upon when I would see any sort of movement on it. I will be surprised if they are able to start any sort of construction before 2010.

When it was first proposed several years ago, my reaction was "This is brilliant! Therefore, it will never be built." So, we'll see.

I don't normally agree with your comments Scrutinizer since they are usually pessimistic but I do on this one. I wish the powers that be would get moving! I want to use that lake while I'm still young.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:


When it was first proposed several years ago, my reaction was "This is brilliant! Therefore, it will never be built." So, we'll see.

rustedhinge wrote:I don't normally agree with your comments Scrutinizer since they are usually pessimistic but I do on this one. I wish the powers that be would get moving! I want to use that lake while I'm still young.

I prefer to think of them as realistic!

Forgive me for not digging through the 9 pages or so of this thread, but assuming this actually gets built, what becomes of the train tracks?



-RBB

The tracks have to be removed or replaced somewhere else.



Supposedy, McCormack Baron Salaazar has the $300 million for the Lake.



EDIT: The money was made public last summer or so and I cannot answer questions since it is in the planning stage and Baron needs to gather property, financing, zoning changes?, etc...

All details cannot be made public and I do not have them in the first place and will wait like everyone else for them to be made public after everything is in place.

SMSPlanstu wrote:The tracks have to be removed or replaced somewhere else.



Supposedy, McCormack Baron Salaazar has the $300 million for the Lake.

Can you tell us where you got this information? This is great if true. I thought this was going to be $1 Billion development -- but maybe that includes the entire surrounding properties when it is finished. What is included in the $300 million? How is HOK involved? Will there ba an announcement?

Gary Kreie wrote:

SMSPlanstu wrote:The tracks have to be removed or replaced somewhere else.



Supposedy, McCormack Baron Salaazar has the $300 million for the Lake.

Can you tell us where you got this information? This is great if true. I thought this was going to be $1 Billion development -- but maybe that includes the entire surrounding properties when it is finished. What is included in the $300 million? How is HOK involved? Will there ba an announcement?

Apparently, a deal has already been worked out with...UP? The tracks will be consolidated to one set of tracks. Only one set of tracks is being used regularly anyway, so it is just a matter of moving the tracks. If you look at the Chouteau Lake renderings, you can just make out the location of the new tracks. This is hardly inside information. There are still many hurdles for this project to become reality, but I have heard from a couple of local developers now that the first phase of the lake "should be wet within 5 years". And, yes, the $1 bllion figure includes all of the subsequent phases.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

trent wrote:

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:It's not even a done deal. Mr. Baron simply proposed it.

Actually, the Gateway Greenway Foundation or whatever they're called, has been buying up small patches of land in the area that the lake is proposed in. They've only completed a few deals, but it's been done.

Really? I did not know that. Any parcels of any signifigance?

It was posted earlier in this thread, as reported by Martin Van Der Werf of the Post-Dispatch, that the Great Rivers Greenway District had purchased a 9-acre parking lot south of Highway 40 (Interstate 64) between Eighth Street and Tucker.

Unless something dramatic happens in the economy, this will be completed. I don't think the timeline even calls for anything to begin until 2010. Interesting enough, Springfield, MO has a similar development currently underway. Thanks to John Q. Hammons, the Jordan Valley development is much further along and should be completed long before Chouteau's Lake begins.

Like I said previously, this project still has many hurdles to overcome, but I guarantee that all the local developers and several out of town concerns are salivating over this project. The only hold up is the enormous site prep cost. Nobody has the ability or will to take that on by themselves. But once you get a little money (ok a lot) in the form of TDD bonds plus state and a little federal assistance to grease the wheels, on top of a compromising UP, plus enough developers to share the risk, I think this project could ultimately make everything else going on downtown look pale in comparison.



The great thing about this project is that it is something that the more, let's say, suburban-minded (the politest term I came up with) developers can understand. New construction around an inviting lake, with great visibility and great highway access...a suburban developer's wet dream!

Good point about the mega finance needs. I wonder if this project is lined-up with the Missour Finance Development Board? They've only got enough authority to handle a couple of projects at a time. They also try to play fairly between K.C. and St. Louis.

I am sure that in order for this to work, ultimately, this project will include just about every conceivable form of financing and assistance. It will include TDD and TIF bonds, New Market Tax Credits (remember that McCormack Baron Salazar, Advantage Capital and US Bank just received ~$150 million? in NMTC), Brownfield Tax Credits, Low-Income Housing Tax Credits, maybe some federal Urban Development grant money, maybe some Superfund site cleanup assistance (I would bet there are some pretty serious environmental issues somewhere on the proposed site), contributions from the Danforth Foundation, maybe the Taylors, donations to and by the Great Rivers Greenway project, etc., etc., plus some pretty hefty equity commitments from a handful of developers.



The other beautiful thing about this project is that it is set up perfectly for phased development. Once you move the railroad tracks, you can make each phase as big or small as market demand vs. site prep costs will support. It is easy to come back later, buy more land (of course it would be nice to have it all under contract from day one, since property values in the area will skyrocket once the first phase breaks ground, probably before), and extend the lake/surrounding development. Each phase can very easily stand on its own.



I guarantee you will hear something about this very soon...there is a rather weak attempt to keep it hush-hush, since property is being acquired as we speak. I just hope all of the developers involved got an interest rate lock on their financing...

I'm just hoping that they will concentrate more on creating high density neighborhoods in the area, instead of office parks along the greenway. This is an opportunity for St. Louis to really step out and make itself great by creating a near southside that trumps all other near downtown development in the country.



Personally, this has always been my favorite project. I lived in Florida for a couple years and loved living by the water, but missed the character of St. Louis. If this gets built, I would funnel any money I had into living near this water.

The development has a new website the site dosen't have very much information.



http://www.chouteauslanding.com/

jlblues wrote:

Gary Kreie wrote:

SMSPlanstu wrote:The tracks have to be removed or replaced somewhere else.



Supposedy, McCormack Baron Salaazar has the $300 million for the Lake.

Can you tell us where you got this information? This is great if true. I thought this was going to be $1 Billion development -- but maybe that includes the entire surrounding properties when it is finished. What is included in the $300 million? How is HOK involved? Will there ba an announcement?

Apparently, a deal has already been worked out with...UP? The tracks will be consolidated to one set of tracks. Only one set of tracks is being used regularly anyway, so it is just a matter of moving the tracks. If you look at the Chouteau Lake renderings, you can just make out the location of the new tracks. This is hardly inside information. There are still many hurdles for this project to become reality, but I have heard from a couple of local developers now that the first phase of the lake "should be wet within 5 years". And, yes, the $1 bllion figure includes all of the subsequent phases.

Ahh, didn't know that. Thanks!



-RBB

trent wrote:Personally, this has always been my favorite project.

At last night's Copia forum, Kevin McGowan said that this was the upcoming project that excited him the most.

I've stated this so many times, you all are probably sick of me saying it. But that connection from the CBD to the near southside is so essential to continued growth in the city. If we ever want to see St. Louis reach it's potential, we've got to find a way for the density to expand beyond the central corridor, which is funnelled by the highway. Chouteau Lake and Landing connect the entire southside in a way that's been missing in modern day St. Louis.

trent wrote:I've stated this so many times, you all are probably sick of me saying it. But that connection from the CBD to the near southside is so essential to continued growth in the city. If we ever want to see St. Louis reach it's potential, we've got to find a way for the density to expand beyond the central corridor, which is funnelled by the highway. Chouteau Lake and Landing connect the entire southside in a way that's been missing in modern day St. Louis.

Chouteau Lake is 5-10 years out as many of the "insiders" point out. Chouteau Landing is a pipe dream.



I want BOTH projects to come to fruition but I don't believe they will happen anytime soon!



Trent, I think you are exaggerating. I am sure st. louis can reach its' potential w/out either project moving forward. Why? because it has too! Soulard, Benton Park and the near southside neighborhoods are dense. Shopping/materialism is not the answer. It is the neighborhood. I believe if we focus on it then the rest will fit into place.

Sure the phased out development of Chouteaus Landing might be a pipe dream, but they're already involved in phase one. There are great warehouse buildings there that will most likely be rehabbed, so I belive it will be a neighborhood...to what degree is the question.



You may think I'm exaggerating, but we also might have different expectations for the city. Leaving a wasteland of parking and train lots in between downtown and the near southside is a big detriment to the development in that surrounding area. Lafayette Square has had success expanding to Chouteau, but Soulard has essentially stopped, spurned by the highway and poor planning.



Chouteau Lake and Landing would connect that, and complete the city. That's just how I see it.

SMSPlanstu wrote:If Chouteau Pond once existed and was fed from springs, then naturally the springs should be reconnected to the lake.



The P-D did a story five years ago when this project first made headlines about a major spring that used to create the pond being located underneath the Central Library.

If you start from the intersection of 16th and Clark and walk south on the east side of 16th, you will here rushing water coming from a sewer just at the entrance to the city parking lot. Does anyone know if this is a diversion channel for the water from the old spring?