urbanSTL

I'm of the opinion that bad design begets bad behavior. Nineteenth century architects believed architecture could elevate a person, and I think that is true. They put great care and design into every building, no matter if it was working class housing. Just walk into a well-designed building, then walk into a poorly constructed strip mall, and tell me if your mood and attitude isn't different. If our city forces crap down our throat, then the chances of residents caring enough to take care of it is minimal, and the behavior will reflect that. If you're surrounded by beautiful things you'll care more about taking care of them.



So as far as there being lots of brick houses of that age in St. Louis, that's not an argument for tearing them down. The materials and construction are far superior than anything that could be built in their place, and we don't need to keep selling our bricks to Houston and filling up our landfills with perfectly good building materials.

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^ If we all chipped in $0.50 we could buy a copy for all our aldermen!

So as far as there being lots of brick houses of that age in St. Louis, that's not an argument for tearing them down.

That is my argument. There's not enough demand to keep them all. I wish there were as well, but what are we to do with 10,000 brick homes all 90-120 years old and in need of a gut rehab? There are plenty of people who love this type of home (I'm one), but many do not. I love St. Louis because of its architecture and neighborhoods - I simply believe that to promote solid growth and sustainable neighborhoods that some beautiful, historic brick buildings need to be town down.



So this has got me thinking . . . I've become somewhat obsessed with "what's next" for cities. Again, it's wonderful that St. Louis has many brick homes, but we shouldn't forget what made them possible - quasi-slave labor for recent immigrants. We don't have beautiful homes simply because people in the past valued homes more - we have them because material, and especially labor, was dirt cheap. Unfortunately we don't have a rush of immigrants willing to lay brick for pennies on the hour. So what are our cities to become - historical oddities? museums? They're already more of a destination than a home . . . I'll keep thinking.

I'm of the opinion that bad design begets bad behavior. Nineteenth century architects believed architecture could elevate a person, and I think that is true. They put great care and design into every building, no matter if it was working class housing. Just walk into a well-designed building, then walk into a poorly constructed strip mall, and tell me if your mood and attitude isn't different. If our city forces crap down our throat, then the chances of residents caring enough to take care of it is minimal, and the behavior will reflect that. If you're surrounded by beautiful things you'll care more about taking care of them.

Tell that to the northside.. full of beautiful historic houses, and now mostly destroyed... interesting concept though.. one does treat a clean bathroom with respect vs. a dirty one..

There's not enough demand to keep them all. I wish there were as well, but what are we to do with 10,000 brick homes all 90-120 years old and in need of a gut rehab? There are plenty of people who love this type of home (I'm one), but many do not.

Grover, this couldn't more incredibly INCORRECT. Did you see the land clearance the city did in the 1960's for Mill Creek Valley?"obsolete, derelict" buildings were leveled. Entire neighborhoods of brownstones and townhouses were wiped clean. Laclede Town was put in its place, new "modern townhouses" of the time, and now, they've all been torn down. Throwing up vinyl housing tracts is NOT progress for this city. Imagine if they had the forsight to save these buildings. Yes, not ALL things can be saved, but the historic fabric of the city is one of the main reasons its attractive to people. You have to look at why there is "not demand" that has to do with the crappy schools and crime issues, not housing stock, sorry.

Did you see the land clearance the city did in the 1960's for Mill Creek Valley?

Yes.

Throwing up vinyl housing tracts is NOT progress for this city.

True.

Imagine if they had the forsight to save these buildings.

I don't think that this is/was a realistic option. For many reasons several hundred thousand people left the city. Who, exactly, should have "saved" these buildings? Should the city have "mothballed" them until a time (say, four decades later) they were in demand?

Yes, not ALL things can be saved, but the historic fabric of the city is one of the main reasons its attractive to people.

I don't think that the area in question is an integral part of the "historic fabric of the city". I would feel different if this were to be constructed adjacent to Lafayette Square Park or in the middle of Benton Park, etc.

You have to look at why there is "not demand" that has to do with the crappy schools and crime issues, not housing stock, sorry.

I certainly didn't mean to say that the housing stock is the cause of low demand. But I don't think the cause (I agree it's crime, schools, etc.) is the point - the lack of demand is, for whatever reason.

southcitygent wrote:I'm not sure why people keep knocking Gilded Age.

You answer your own question in your next sentence:



"I am not happy about their potential destruction of homes along 12th street"

^ I just checked out their website for the first time in a while and I've got to say that their projects look good - I've been in a couple of them, just didn't know they were Gilded Age projects. What they've done in/around Lafayette Square has really added density to the neighborhod and everything, so far, has fit in well. It really leaves me wondering what the heck is up with the rendering for the new project.

I dont think the design is bad at all. I think they took into consideration the surrounding neighborhood. 1/3 of the street front actually has buildings on it while the rest has a nice wall. Whats the big deal? Theres one small entrance for cars, and lots of trees. In a perfect world they would have put the parking in the back and had the grocery store right up on the street, but people dont want to park behind stores (even if they put a nice, attractive entrance back there). Overall, I think they took into consideration the patrons that they forsee coming from the Georgian as prefering a design like the one they made. I bet that many people who live there will actually drive their cars to the store across the street! The thing about grocery stores is, that unless you go every day, you have at least 5 or 6 bags in your hands and carrying that many could be a hassle no matter how little distance you have to walk.



Im strictly commenting on the desing of this place. Im not commenting on the destruction of the houses on the site etc.

Susan wrote:Just walk into a well-designed building, then walk into a poorly constructed strip mall, and tell me if your mood and attitude isn't different. If our city forces crap down our throat, then the chances of residents caring enough to take care of it is minimal, and the behavior will reflect that. If you're surrounded by beautiful things you'll care more about taking care of them.

So true. As an experiment, go to the Wal-Mart on Kirkwood Road. I've been there once, and it was one of the most awful shopping experiences I've ever had. Even by Wal-Mart standards, the store sucked and the attitudes of the employees were very poor.

Here is what I have from deep throat. Goodson and Shaughnessy were caught off guard by immediate negative reaction that followed their initial contacts with BH residents about selling their homes. Young didn't help by threatening people with eminent domain in the initial exchange. Rumors started flying about grocery stores and Walgreens (which proved true). Gilded Age went on the offensive with a PR campaign to drum up support and quiet dissenting voices; hence the BJ story. Needing some kind of graphic, they submitted the rendering that they used to entice potential clients. This appears to have blown up in their face. The design from the BJ, they now claim, is not set in stone and will likely change to an extent. I hear that certain forces within the preservation community have met with Shaughnessy and Goodson, and have discussed playing some kind of role as design consultants. Nothing has been worked out for sure, but Goodson and Shaughnessy are reported to be amenable to a certain extent of compromise. I don't know if the demolition plans have changed, but I know that concerns about them were discussed. Much of what people have criticized as design flaws in the project are apparently being driven by tenant requirements, i.e. Walgreens said they wouldn't come unless they got XX. Everyone needs to keep up the pressure. It seems that the initial resistance may have brought them to the table, if we back off now, they may not follow through. Once again, I agree, Gilded Age has done what I consider to be very nice work, but we need to make sure that standards remain high.

TGE-ATW wrote:Much of what people have criticized as design flaws in the project are apparently being driven by tenant requirements, i.e. Walgreens said they wouldn't come unless they got XX. Everyone needs to keep up the pressure.

If anyone underestimates the value of keeping the pressure on, let's remember what Walgreens wanted to do with the South Side National Bank. Their current location just off of the busy Grand/Gravois intersection probably wasn't their first choice, and they had to make some accommodations to those that demanded pedestrian access from Gravois, but ultimately the SSNB building was saved and Walgreens built their new store anyway.



I'm glad to see the final design may not be etched in stone, especially as it pertains to demolishing structures east of 13th Street. There's still much more work to be done, though, but hopefully we'll wind up with a quality development and as much of BH preserved as possible.

DeBaliviere wrote:

Susan wrote:Just walk into a well-designed building, then walk into a poorly constructed strip mall, and tell me if your mood and attitude isn't different. If our city forces crap down our throat, then the chances of residents caring enough to take care of it is minimal, and the behavior will reflect that. If you're surrounded by beautiful things you'll care more about taking care of them.

So true. As an experiment, go to the Wal-Mart on Kirkwood Road. I've been there once, and it was one of the most awful shopping experiences I've ever had. Even by Wal-Mart standards, the store sucked and the attitudes of the employees were very poor.

I totally agree with you about the kirkwood wal-mart, but I dont see much of a correllation between these two places. The wal-mart/lowes/target in kirkwood has at least 1000 parking spaces while the BH project maybe has 50. If the rendering we were shown isnt final and they can make it even better for everyone then great. But I dont think that people will get the same vibe from this new development as they get from the 50+ acre walmart complex

I hope they set the highest design standards and stick to them. Retailers like Walgreens will build to the lowest standard allowed and make threats about walking away if pressed. The funny thing is, retailing giants all over the planet build some really nice stuff if required.

TGE-ATW,



That's good news. I hope that they come up with a smarter design, it sounds as if they are working on it to an extent.

TGE-ATW wrote:Here is what I have from deep throat. Goodson and Shaughnessy were caught off guard by immediate negative reaction that followed their initial contacts with BH residents about selling their homes.

... Nothing has been worked out for sure, but Goodson and Shaughnessy are reported to be amenable to a certain extent of compromise.

So we can maybe, maybe, maybe hope this won't happen?:

hey, that would look GREAT in Ballwin!!

Question:



To whom can we write to complain about the suburbanity of this project along with the tearing down of owner occupied homes? I and some others want to write someone...who are they and what are their email addresses?



Thank you.

and it looks like the Gravois ramp is being relocated to Lafayette.

Phyllis Young is who to call (contact information below). She holds the power to control this project. I am a little concerned about the site plan being published. where did it come from? THere is ALWAYS the chance that Goodson and Shaughnessy are blowing smoke with their apparent willingness to listen to our concerns. If they passify everyone by public displays of receptiveness, people will stop b*tching because they assume the threat has been ameliorated. Meanwhile, the developers will continue with their plans. If we don't keep up the pressure it may be too late. Don't let them hoodwink us. Also, avoid being bamboozled and hornswaggled. It may be time for another round of contacts with Young from all of us who have contacted her before, just to let her know that we are still watching.



Alderwoman Young

City Hall, Room 230

1200 Market Street

St. Louis, MO 63103

Office: 622-3766 Home: 776-1036

Youngp@stlouiscity.com

I heard the Gravois ramp is being rerouted to exit onto Truman.



Who gets the property? Look at site plan.

There is a meeting of the Missouri Eminent Domain Abuse Coalition, at which Bohemian Hill will be discussed, next Saturday 3/3 at the Barr Brancy library. SW corner of Jefferson and Lafayette at 12:00. All are welcome