urbanSTL

DeBaliviere wrote:

jlblues wrote:^Now I'm intrigued. There could be alot of money in what you suggest. In addidtion to the Dolly Parton Stampede and Nascar Cafe, how about we put bleachers around that public plaza in the renderings and use it for rodeos? Maybe a nice open-air line dancing floor and bar, on the fourth story of one of the buildings, overlooking the ballpark? That would be a huge hit. Line dancing and a Cardinals game. Think about it. I'm going to get started right now to see if I can open a Roasted Turkey Leg Cafe at the corner of Broadway and Clark, anyone want to go in on it with me?

I'm in. We'll be able to retire in five years.

And we can open a barber shop next door that specializes in mullets. And "big hair" for the hoosier gals!



Oh yeah, and a "fashion" store that sells tube tops and wife beater shirts!

"downtown KC could be like Indianapolis if we do it right".

To quote Jerri Blank: "If you're gonna reach for a star, reach for the lowest one you can! I'm gonna work at the artificial flower plant plant."



No offense to Indianapolis, but if this is what we are aiming for....

TIABstl wrote:No offense to Indianapolis, but if this is what we are aiming for....

Have you been to Indy recently? Their DT is quite nice. We should be shooting for what they have (and we will have it upon completion of BPV) and then we can look to Denver and MNPLS for our next stages. Shooting for CHI is out of the question for the next 20 years. We do have to be realistic and realize that STL is far behind in the urban renewal curve when it comes to raw numbers of DT residents. However, since we have a larger metro population than most, we are well poissed to go zooming past the smaller cities that surpassed us while we were dormant.

TIABstl wrote:

"downtown KC could be like Indianapolis if we do it right".

To quote Jerri Blank: "If you're gonna reach for a star, reach for the lowest one you can! I'm gonna work at the artificial flower plant plant."



No offense to Indianapolis, but if this is what we are aiming for....

It would be an inprovement over ours. After equaling Indy, then we can aim higher.

I really like the idea of a country night and possibly a country themed nightclub, it lends to the diversity that I thought this board embraced. I am not a huge fan of country music however I have always had a great time at the country/western bars I have gone too. The people that I have run into there seem to be down to earth and non pretentious and alot of great looking women.



I know some of the "progressive" board members on here believe that country music has no place in an urban environment filled with individuals so sophisticated and highly educated however I think a variety of different genres of establishments will make this project a huge success.

Urban Elitist wrote:

TIABstl wrote:No offense to Indianapolis, but if this is what we are aiming for....

Have you been to Indy recently? Their DT is quite nice. We should be shooting for what they have (and we will have it upon completion of BPV) and then we can look to Denver and MNPLS for our next stages. Shooting for CHI is out of the question for the next 20 years. We do have to be realistic and realize that STL is far behind in the urban renewal curve when it comes to raw numbers of DT residents. However, since we have a larger metro population than most, we are well poissed to go zooming past the smaller cities that surpassed us while we were dormant.

Exactly: I was thinking of Indy as our next "goal". While not rocking and rolling their downtown is better than ours. Granted their Union Station also died but the downtown mall draws good business. I like Indy's canal setup on the north edge of downtown where houses are being built along it.



Then a downtown/city like Denver/Seattle/Minneapolis is our next goal.



You're right: we'll never be a Chicago unless a great Dailey Jr./Juliani type comes along in St. Louis and completely kicks butt. (I often wonder if things would have been switched for our town cities if St. Louis would have had a powerful Boss Dailey type mayor who reigned for a long time. As bad as Dailey was he kept Chicago from collapsing the way St. Louis did.)

Agree with Dweebe, CS & Elitist about where STL stands and what cities we should be "targeting." I don't see any mayor changing St. Louis into a Chicago, LA or NYC ever. I know we're all about rah-rah-sis-boom-bah, but let's get real...

innov8ion wrote:Agree with Dweebe, CS & Elitist about where STL stands and what cities we should be "targeting." I don't see any mayor changing St. Louis into a Chicago, LA or NYC ever. I know we're all about rah-rah-sis-boom-bah, but let's get real...

Sorry, I'll back off the Kool-Aid.

If they would just stick to all the diverse things that I like it would be AWESOME. :-s

eh... a lot of talk about country establishments downtown. I'm not a huge fan of Country Music at all... I would prefer a hip joint, some crazy art shows, and some theaters instead.

Anyone hear Charlie Brennan on KMOX this morning?



He had a segment to "explain' TIF and the person he talked to was one of the nations leading anti-TIF experts. And of course all of the callers piled on.



I especially liked two points:



The expert points out that TIF supports sprawl. Thanks, Sherlock, how does 1200 residential units, office and retail in the heart of Downtown support sprawl?



Small business owners don't get TIF and subsidies, just big rich developers. Two examples I can think of where was Kevin McGowan before he used these subsidies, now he talks about an 80 story high rise, or Tim Voight (Millenium) who started out rehabbing homes and now is working on getting a big TIF project on Jefferson. Others - The Gills and The Nguyen's are doing great work only because of TIF and other subsidies.



This whole dust up over the "hole" and every radio caller being an expert on real estate development and city fiscal policy really p***es me off. What a mess this place would be if it was a true democracy. Nothing would ever get done.

Yup, some people like to spout diversity but only when it suits them. Last time I checked, we have some hip joints, art shows (not sure if they are sane or otherwise) with theaters on the way (JeffArms.) Moolah Theater is pretty close, however. Does Brokeback Mountain count as a shitkicker movie? In the city, diversity is only cool if you're gay -- not country! Get with the program people...

Ihnen wrote:If they would just stick to all the diverse things that I like it would be AWESOME. :-s

eh... a lot of talk about country establishments downtown. I'm not a huge fan of Country Music at all... I would prefer a hip joint, some crazy art shows, and some theaters instead.

As far as diversity goes, I would say country music and country music fans are already very well-represented in our region.



I would never say country music has NO place in an urban environment, I know plenty of black and Latino people that just love country music. I even like SOME country music. There are also many successful urban, country-themed bars, although most of the ones I have seen, outside of The South, are really more tongue-in-cheek.



My problem is that I really don't see the type of people that are likely to be big country music fans lining up to live in downtown St. Louis, or downtown anywhere, for that matter, at least none of the ones I know. Remember there are, er, may be, 1,200 residential units in this project. Should the developers be catering to the Cardinals fans that love the country-livin', or to the people that want to actually live downtown and in Ballpark Village? I for one would definitely not want to live there if there was a Nascar Cafe, or a big, country-themed bar or restaurant in the project, with the possible exception of Coyote Ugly (again really more of a tongue-in-cheek country bar). If I wanted to spend a lot of time around people that are really into that sort of thing, I already have my pick of Arnold, Fenton, or any other one of dozens of St. Louis suburbs, and yes certain areas of the city, as well.



Moreover, the image many people around the country already have of the St. Louis region is one of an extremely conformist and segregated region, where the advantaged people are all racist rednecks that love their Nascar and their country music. We could reinforce that image, or show the nation what we all know already, that St. Louis is really far more diverse than that. Granted that is a tall order for a development project, but, as I have said many times before, Ballpark Village will soon become the most recognizable image of our city after the Arch.

innov8ion wrote:Yup, some people like to spout diversity but only when it suits them. Last time I checked, we have some hip joints, art shows (not sure if they are sane or otherwise) with theaters on the way (JeffArms.) Moolah Theater is pretty close, however. Does Brokeback Mountain count as a shitkicker movie? In the city, diversity is only cool if you're gay -- not country! Get with the program people...

Who is saying that everything should be cool gay stuff? Don't worry, there won't be a single gay establishment in this development.



edit: On second thought, we could compromise. They could open a country gay bar.

Manchester wrote:I know some of the "progressive" board members on here believe that country music has no place in an urban environment filled with individuals so sophisticated and highly educated however I think a variety of different genres of establishments will make this project a huge success.

I'd attempt to clarify my earlier remarks, but jlblues summed up my position on this better than I can. I have no problem with a country-themed restaurant, bar, or whatever in Ballpark Village or elsewhere in downtown, I just feel like country music fans are already well-served by establishments in the area. And yes, I even like some country music, although I generally like older stuff, along with alt-country, and I steer away from anything overplayed on mainstream radio regardless of genre.

And country attractions are very likely under-represented in the city and downtown specifically.

jlblues wrote:As far as diversity goes, I would say country music and country music fans are already very well-represented in our region.

Heh, and yet in your next paragraph you say you wouldn't live in a development downtown that had a Nascar Cafe or country-themed bar or restaurant. So country music and like attractions have a place downtown; you just wouldn't live in the vicinity if they were. Does anyone else see the contradiction?

jlblues wrote:I would never say country music has NO place in an urban environment, I know plenty of black and Latino people that just love country music. I even like SOME country music. There are also many successful urban, country-themed bars, although most of the ones I have seen, outside of The South, are really more tongue-in-cheek.

And if somebody chooses not to live in a development because there may be a country-style restaurant or the like in a sea of crate and barrels and tapas restaurants, well that's their choice. Who's to say that person has better taste than someone else who may want to reside in the development if it were there.

jlblues wrote:I for one would definitely not want to live there if there was a Nascar Cafe, or a big, country-themed bar or restaurant in the project, with the possible exception of Coyote Ugly (again really more of a tongue-in-cheek country bar). If I wanted to spend a lot of time around people that are really into that sort of thing, I already have my pick of Arnold, Fenton, or any other one of dozens of St. Louis suburbs, and yes certain areas of the city, as well.

People are going to think what they are going to think. And as long as St. Louis is in the Midwest, we'll always be "less cultured" than those on the coasts. The next time I give a damn what some NYer's stereotype is of us, just shoot me! The city and region shouldn't apologize for its diversity.

jlblues wrote:Moreover, the image many people around the country already have of the St. Louis region is one of an extremely conformist and segregated region, where the advantaged people are all racist rednecks that love their Nascar and their country music.

Yup, we're far more diverse and tolerant than to accept anything bourgeoisie in our downtown. Screw segregating any working class elements downtown; let's just exclude them altogether. And exclusion, as we know, is far better than segregation. What's with the Orwellian double-speak? By the way, there's actually a successful "honky tonk" in Manhattan: http://rodeobar.com/. No doubt NYC is truly more tolerant and diverse than we are. And they aren't apologists either.

jlblues wrote:We could reinforce that image, or show the nation what we all know already, that St. Louis is really far more diverse than that.

I don't think anyone is alleging there will be a proliferation of country-bumpkin attractions downtown. Most of this is in jest, of course. But maybe a little something for diversity-sake; especially with all the Cards fans coming to the BPV.



Please don't take any of this personally, just playing the devil's advocate. I'll probably catch some hell, but oh well

Have you been to Indy recently? Their DT is quite nice. We should be shooting for what they have (and we will have it upon completion of BPV) and then we can look to Denver and MNPLS for our next stages.

Was just in Indianapolis this July. I never said it was bad. Right now it kicks the crap out of both St Louis and KC's downtowns. I just think there is greater potential for both cities to improve and build upon. And lord knows it won't happen overnight.



Maybe all those godforsaken Tom Raper RV signs every 100ft along I-70 leave a bad impression.

OK, maybe this should be a different thread, I don't know (I can never figure out how such things are determined anyway), but what WOULD people like to see in Ballpark Village?



And BTW, innov8ion, I would like to see a 4 or 5 star country-style restaurant downtown, if there is such a thing, but I would still prefer it be somewhere else besides the Village. As far as Crate & Barrel goes, I would love to see one in BV, but I don't think there is a chance in hell that that will happen, and it really isn't a good place for it anyway. A tapas restaurant would be ok too, but I think we really need to put a fork in that trend.



I think we all know that the vast majority of the retail outlets in the Village are going to be national chains, so lets just get that out of the way right now. Besides the infinitely-mentioned Whole Paycheck and ESPN-Zone, there will more than likely be a Starbuck's, Cold Stone Creamery, a St. Louis Bread Co., a larger edition of Build-A-Bear, and something along the lines of a Cheesecake Factory. In addition, and where applicable, instead, I would like to see something like the following mix:



Smith & Wollensky

Tandoori Nights

Fogo de Chao

Samba Room

House of Blues

Rock Bottom Brewery

Panda Express

Potbelly's

Straub's, or something like Potash Brothers in Chicago

Barnes & Noble or Borders

CVS, Walgreen's or Duane Reed

Cosi

Tim Horton's

Muvico Theatre

^ Looks like a good mix of places. Particularly the Rock Bottom, Fogo de Chao, grocery, drug stores and theater.... I like your usage of, "put a fork in that trend." Nicely done Was just using tapas places and crate and barrel as examples of hip attractions to contrast with something that may not be quite as hip yet still work.



Why would it have to be a 4 or 5 star country place? I can imagine some country-themed barbeque joint that may not be 4 or 5 star, yet still be fun. I wouldn't exactly call Panda Express 4 or 5 star... Ok, I'm officially done talking about country crap now.... Ugh....

$700 million -- the good news -- the price tag keeps going up, and articles are still be published.... i am glad one of the MEGA projects in STL will more than likely go forward (the one I can think of that has seemingly stalled is Bottle District)

$700 million eh? It's hard for me to conceive the possibilities here.... I wonder how big of an impact this could have. What could it be compared to?

tbspqr wrote:$700 million -- the good news -- the price tag keeps going up, and articles are still be published.... i am glad one of the MEGA projects in STL will more than likely go forward (the one I can think of that has seemingly stalled is Bottle District)

I can't help but think that these projects are being consolidated.... can STL support 3 major projects? probably not at this point in time. I would much rather have the bottle district fall away and have an AWESOME ballpark village with all the "promised" resturants that TBD said it would have. This is so much better a location for everyone... except the dude that owns the land and possibly the casino. Also what about that pesky 81 story tower.... before that was announced -- the BV was $300 million, then after it was 71 stories - it was $650 million, now that they went up to 81 stories - its $700 million... accident? maybe -- but who knows.

It's pretty much established the MW tower is not associated because the Tower alone will be $600 million or more.