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PostSep 14, 2006#676

Ihnen wrote:I really like the free parking idea. Not only is it probably a necessity in St. Louis since every major shopping center has free parking, it's simply about convenience. I recognize the 'if you build it they will come' thinking surrounding parking, highways, etc., but I would say the opposite is true as well - if you don't build it, they won't come. My hope is for a vibrant, active downtown. To accomplish this, people must be accomodated. Some will use metro - some will walk/ride bikes/scooters, but downtown StL is not going to become the Upper East Side. As several have pointed out, there's a right way and wrong way to do this - at the minimum parking must be hidden within the complex, but I'm hoping it's underground. I think street parking is a necessity as well- it brings the street to life and connects it with surrounding blocks. Otherwise BPV will be an introverted complex.
I can pretty much agree with this entire post. I'm not complaining so long as they bury the parking or put the parking inside the condo towers that way the land is being used to it's fullest potential.



And the entire reason for tax credits from the city is so the developer can do things that the market does not demand, such and place all parking underground or in building. I say is they want to build stand alone garages in such a high profile and high potential urban area, then they can do it without tax credits. I'm all for some credits as long as the city gets something in return.

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PostSep 14, 2006#677

The free underground parking is a REALLY good idea ... provided the residents have their own parking ...

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PostSep 14, 2006#678

UE - not trying to start anything, just trying to point out there will be a need for parking. Moon has 50 spots for 43 units and they had to build a garage. BPV will have 1200 units... plus spots for everything else.



That many spots will obviously need a garage. Underground parking would be great, but I don't think that will happen for 2000 spots.


Urban Elitist wrote:
buckethead wrote:
Urban Elitist wrote:^^And also I'm holding out hope that parking for the residential units will be inside the towers themselves. As long as Cordish does not waste one square foot of land building another dedicated parking garage, then they have avoided my wrath. And none of that garages with only ground space retail crap.


Doesn't Moon Brothers have a dedicated parking garage they built?

Why did Loftworks avoid your wrath???
Because Moon Brothers:

1. Has only ~50 spaces built and is build on land that will not be needed for anything else

2. Is not being built directly next to the stadium, in the heart of downtown, and being billed as the savior of DT STL.

3. An urban villege in the heart of DT needs to be transit oriented and built on a pedestrian scale and 2000 above ground parking spaces would kill that effect.



I know you can see the difference and your post was purely intended to start trouble/be snappy, so I'm going to drop it there.

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PostSep 14, 2006#679

buckethead wrote:UE - not trying to start anything, just trying to point out there will be a need for parking. Moon has 50 spots for 43 units and they had to build a garage. BPV will have 1200 units... plus spots for everything else.



That many spots will obviously need a garage. Underground parking would be great, but I don't think that will happen for 2000 spots.
Point taken. I am just going to hope and pray the all parking for the condos is internal to the condo structure, and the 2000 underground spots are for guest, retail, and baseball parking.

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PostSep 14, 2006#680

^



I agree.

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PostSep 14, 2006#681

From KSDK.com


Cardinals, St. Louis Leaders Working On New Plan For Ballpark Village

created: 9/13/2006 8:23:56 PM

updated: 9/13/2006 11:16:09 PM



By Ann Rubin



(KSDK) - The Cardinals are in negotiations with the city of St. Louis, hammering out details of a new plan for the Ballpark Village. The proposal would transform the area around the new stadium, but would cost ten times as much as first proposed.



It doesn't look like much yet. But what the Cardinals see is endless potential.



"We got into the planning and it just evolved into something... it just got better and better," said Senior Vice President of Business Development Bill Dewitt III.



The Ballpark Village started as a $60 million project. The current deal on the table is more like $650 million. There would be restaurants and retail as well as office towers and condos with stadium views.



"Picture public events, free events, book fairs, country music nights, (and) wine tasting events," said Dewitt. "It could be a real hub for the city."



But with the bigger project and bigger price tag comes a bigger demand for public financial assistance.



The Cardinals and developer Cordish Company say they'll need tax increment financing to make it work. They would be using a portion of the project's future tax revenues up front.



"The TIF financing concept is that you will capture some of those, a portion of those incremental, those new taxes that otherwise would not be there but for this project. And you use those a little bit to finance the financing gaps," Dewitt said.



St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay says this type of assistance isn't unusual for this type of project.



"I want to make it clear the city of St. Louis is not going to be writing a check," said Slay. "The city of St. Louis is not going to put in any existing tax revenues (or) any money that we have available for things right now."



Right now, both sides are crunching the numbers and negotiating the deal.



"We're driving a hard bargain," said Slay. "And we're going to make sure that not one additional dollar from a public standpoint is put into this thing than is needed to make this thing a project we can all be proud of and that will be successful. And we want it to be successful."



Cardinal fans want that too, but give the proposal mixed reviews so far.



"I think it's great it's going to generate jobs. I don't think it's great they want more money from us," said Tami Shelton.



"They said it wouldn't raise taxes or anything so I'm all for the Cardinals putting up some money for it. Absolutely, public money is fine," said Bruce McCollister.



The Cardinals and the city could have the details worked out in the next six weeks. The goal is to get the Ballpark Village built and open by late 2008.



KSDK

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PostSep 14, 2006#682

but would cost ten times as much as first proposed.


Why not, "and it would be an investment 10x as large!"

Why "but"? But nothing - it's good news that the project has become more ambitious. I can see why the Cards and the Mayor are frustrated with how this is portrayed in the press. This opening to the story makes it sounds like the Cards want/need the city to help cover this increased cost. Ann has her head in the sand.


"I think it's great it's going to generate jobs. I don't think it's great they want more money from us," said Tami Shelton.


Why can't the story correct this quote? The Cards do not want "more money from us" any more than they want to give us more money! The larger project means that they may receive more public money, but ONLY if they produce EVEN MORE money for the city.

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PostSep 14, 2006#683

^Sounds good.



The only problem I have is....country Music nights....What the hell is this!!! While at the Cardinal game yesterday, I also noticed alot of country music being played on the main sound system. I hope this ends soon.

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PostSep 14, 2006#684

Late 2008 means they will build BPV as quickly as they built the stadium

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PostSep 14, 2006#685

I'd expect it to cost at least $650 million. What were they going to build for $60 million anyway? Not much. It'll all be revenue producing stuff too, right (no government, religious or nonprofit ownership)?

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PostSep 14, 2006#686

^^ 2 years seems pretty quick..maybe thats just the first phase????

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PostSep 14, 2006#687

Well, the Fox 2 KTVI website is going through some changes so it’s not working well, but I did pull up the first part of Charles Jaco’s bit from the morning news yesterday. Watching the video from the website here are some key points;

• The developers DO NOT want free money from the city. They want to keep a portion of sales tax generated at the new BPV and that is it. They have not asked for money from any other city revenue sources.

• Currently the empty lot generates $0 in revenue. Fully completed the BPV could generate $20 to $30 million a year in sales tax revenue and the developers want about half of that. This is not out of line and maybe even under what has occured with similar developments in other cities.

• The whole finance package is about 90% done. Everything could be done and an announcement could come in 7 to 8 weeks.

• The Post-Dispatch was wrong on a number of points.

• The types of condos are still in the air.



He said that a piece to air that night he would preview brand new renderings and layouts.



Hopefully that report will end up on KTVI’s website.

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PostSep 14, 2006#688

Looking at the Cordish site, other developments were $35M for two blocks in Baltimore, $75M for "Fourth Street" in Louisville . . . and these are cool projects. Makes me think that $650M will completely ROCK! (Now if this could just be portrayed in the local media). The Power and Light district in KC is probably the most similar project. Does anyone know how this played in KC (public assistance)?

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PostSep 14, 2006#689

appraisalman wrote:^Sounds good.



The only problem I have is....country Music nights....What the hell is this!!! While at the Cardinal game yesterday, I also noticed alot of country music being played on the main sound system. I hope this ends soon.


Its the Dewitts. They love their country music. Don't you remember the World Series? Boston brought out Aerosmith, and someone else - can't remember who it was right now - an opera singer? Anyway, the musicians that sing the national anthem in the WS are supposed to be representative of the community in which the game is being played. With all of the great and varied musical talent in this town, in two nights of national TV exposure, the Cardinals brought out two country singers, Gretchen Whatshername and someone else. :oops: Not to mention that gawdawful Redbird Fever song...



This is why I hope Bill Dewitt III doesn't get a say in what retail goes into Ballpark Village. Oh boy, Dolly Parton Stampede and Nascar Cafe here we come!!!

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PostSep 14, 2006#690

Ihnen wrote:Looking at the Cordish site, other developments were $35M for two blocks in Baltimore, $75M for "Fourth Street" in Louisville . . . and these are cool projects. Makes me think that $650M will completely ROCK! (Now if this could just be portrayed in the local media). The Power and Light district in KC is probably the most similar project. Does anyone know how this played in KC (public assistance)?
I don't know how good of a comparisoion KC is in the terms of public financing for major private projects. They have a habit of publicly funding way too much. I think they recently signed off on some massive renovations for their baseball stadium out in the burbs and propped it up with massive amounst of public assistance, whereas we paid nealy nothing to the Cardinals for out brand new DT stadium. The two cities aren't really comparabale on this subject, nor should we compare them anyways...only leads to trouble.

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PostSep 14, 2006#691

Nonetheless, it's exciting to see what's happening in KC (excluding their stadiums). I found a telling line in a KC Star column speaking about the new Power and Light District. (paraphrasing) "downtown KC could be like Indianapolis if we do it right". Can anyone imagine someone from StL saying this?!?!? Downtown Indy is more vibrant and more cohesive. I'm not saying it's a great analogy, but it certainly highlights what I think is a unique attitude in StL. It's more likely to hear "we're just as good as Chicago" or "I want a vibrant downtown like Seattle" than "hey, Indy or the 'Nati, or wherever has a cool idea that could work here."

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PostSep 14, 2006#692

Yeah, you'd definitely be hard-pressed to find many St. Louisans outside of this forum who would be willing to admit to admit that a city like Indy has a much more vibrant downtown than ours. People here seem to think that the quality of a city is directly proportional to the number of pro sports teams it has.

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PostSep 14, 2006#693

I feel your pain, but how are they going to recoup their costs without also catering to the country folk driving from miles away to come to the game and hoot and holler in BPV? BPV can't be all cosmopolitan and anti-chain. There's gotta be some balance otherwise it ain't gonna work.


appraisalman wrote:^Sounds good.

The only problem I have is....country Music nights....What the hell is this!!! While at the Cardinal game yesterday, I also noticed alot of country music being played on the main sound system. I hope this ends soon.

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PostSep 14, 2006#694

maybe they'll atract a cowboy ugly to BPV...i could live with that type a country establishment

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PostSep 14, 2006#695

One of my best friends lives in downtown Indy and I go to visit every so often. I tend to agree with your description, DeB.


DeBaliviere wrote:Yeah, you'd definitely be hard-pressed to find many St. Louisans outside of this forum who would be willing to admit to admit that a city like Indy has a much more vibrant downtown than ours. People here seem to think that the quality of a city is directly proportional to the number of pro sports teams it has.

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PostSep 14, 2006#696

Take a look around next time you're at a Cards game. Most of our fans are either a) hoosiers from the STL area or b) hoosiers from outside the STL area. A country bar would probably be a huge hit - get Dale Jr. and that Git R Done guy to sign autographs at the grand opening.

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PostSep 14, 2006#697

^Now I'm intrigued. There could be alot of money in what you suggest. In addidtion to the Dolly Parton Stampede and Nascar Cafe, how about we put bleachers around that public plaza in the renderings and use it for rodeos? Maybe a nice open-air line dancing floor and bar, on the fourth story of one of the buildings, overlooking the ballpark? That would be a huge hit. Line dancing and a Cardinals game. Think about it. I'm going to get started right now to see if I can open a Roasted Turkey Leg Cafe at the corner of Broadway and Clark, anyone want to go in on it with me?

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PostSep 14, 2006#698

ya maybe Cavanders Boot City will open up their first urban storefront



http://www.cavenders.com/

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PostSep 14, 2006#699

dweebe wrote:Well, the Fox 2 KTVI website is going through some changes so it’s not working well, but I did pull up the first part of Charles Jaco’s bit from the morning news yesterday. Watching the video from the website here are some key points;

• The developers DO NOT want free money from the city. They want to keep a portion of sales tax generated at the new BPV and that is it. They have not asked for money from any other city revenue sources.

• Currently the empty lot generates $0 in revenue. Fully completed the BPV could generate $20 to $30 million a year in sales tax revenue and the developers want about half of that. This is not out of line and maybe even under what has occured with similar developments in other cities.

• The whole finance package is about 90% done. Everything could be done and an announcement could come in 7 to 8 weeks.

• The Post-Dispatch was wrong on a number of points.

• The types of condos are still in the air.



He said that a piece to air that night he would preview brand new renderings and layouts.



Hopefully that report will end up on KTVI’s website.


I hope so too. Compare this to the KSDK report, which again assumes that the Cardinals are asking for existing public monies just as the Post-Dispatch did previously. Jaco is one of the few you can count on for solid reporting. Some here perceive him to be a skeptic about Ballpark Village. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but for the moment he's one of the few in local media that's simply asking the right questions about this project IMHO.



DeBaliviere, you're right about Indy and St. Louis' perception of it. I've actually been grilled on other local forums for suggesting that their downtown might have a leg up on ours. You're also right about the majority of fans at Busch Stadium- they'd be in heaven if only there was a post-game monster truck show on the field following the night of country music. Country music night at Busch? Country music in Ballpark Village, according to Dimwit III? Line dancing on KMOV? When in the hell did we become North Nashville?



I don't mean to stray from topic, but does anyone else know how often Country Music Night is featured at Busch? I've been to three games this year, and I have tickets for three more before the season ends. I'd actually consider parting with my tickets to keep my ears from bleeding. :wink:

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PostSep 14, 2006#700

jlblues wrote:^Now I'm intrigued. There could be alot of money in what you suggest. In addidtion to the Dolly Parton Stampede and Nascar Cafe, how about we put bleachers around that public plaza in the renderings and use it for rodeos? Maybe a nice open-air line dancing floor and bar, on the fourth story of one of the buildings, overlooking the ballpark? That would be a huge hit. Line dancing and a Cardinals game. Think about it. I'm going to get started right now to see if I can open a Roasted Turkey Leg Cafe at the corner of Broadway and Clark, anyone want to go in on it with me?


I'm in. We'll be able to retire in five years.

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