urbanSTL

tbspqr wrote:

Gary Kreie wrote:Then after the whole thing is finished, the city slaps a 20% per ticket tax on sport events in the city and make up the $30 mill in one year. Everyone else is scalping Cardinal Tickets -- why not the city?

This just punishes the fans for the greed of these rich owners. This wouldn't hurt them at all.

I thought someone would make this argument. But market price is market price for baseball tickets. Taxes don't change the market price. This year the premium delta above face value appears to be going to Cardinals with Prime Seat Club, Ticket Holders, and Ticket Brokers. Why not let the city in on that premium markup, too. The Cardinals will do research to find the optimal price for making money. The answer will not just be the tax added on top. The tax will just be added to the management cost column -- like a pitcher's salary, or landscaping. The price will be the market price. I suspect they are planning to raise face prices anyway, whether costs go up or not - because the demand is so high.

SMSPlanstu wrote:At what point does hardball stop and a wealthy citizen recognize their contribution to society and community?

I'm afraid it stops at the borders of the metro area...that's the problem with out of town ownership, they already have their brick-paneled money maker, now they can take a big stinking crap on the BV site, or at least threaten to do so until they get the tax breaks they want. They don't live here, what do they care what BV looks like?



Does the city have any legal recourse here? Were they guaranteed a certain number of residential units?

The project could be drastically scaled back, says Bill DeWitt III, the Cards' vice president for business development. Instead of high-rises, Ballpark Village could be simply "bars and restaurants with parking behind it."

It?s certainly troubling to hear this kind of comment being thrown around.

trent wrote:The Cards can have their one block, or whatever, to build their HOF...but the rest gets opened to private developers. Then, we would really see some great development. I'm guessing we'd see a lot more bold design, great retailers, and an awesome streetscape.

I think dividing the site up into 4 parcels and handing them to different developers would be a good way to go. We'd get a variation of design and uses...if the city could work such a deal.

Gary Kreie wrote:
Two can play at bait and switch. I say we give them a $30 mill TIF. Then after the whole thing is finished, the city slaps a 20% per ticket tax on sport events in the city and make up the $30 mill in one year. Everyone else is scalping Cardinal Tickets -- why not the city?

The Cardinals and Rams were both subject to the city's entertainment tax (5%) in the past, but both franchises were able to get them removed. A 20% tax on all sports teams would be terrible for the Blues (hence unrealistic). The Blues are already one of the highest taxed franchises in all of sports. They are still subject to the entertainment tax - something that may get lifted as new ownership takes over soon.



The last thing I want to see happen is the Ballpark village being downsized. I'm really looking forward to the new high rises, both there and at the bottledistrict.

I certainly have no desire to defend the Cardinals in the whole new stadium issue, and please correct me if I am wrong (I wasn't in St. Louis then), but I thought that all of the commitments made by the Cardinals re: Ballpark Village were made PRIOR to the Missouri legislature rejecting state funding for the stadium. I thought all of those commitments were thus null and void. Yes, they did get state money in the form of removal of the 8th street ramp and relocation of the street, but I didn't think there were any commitments for that.



They did, however, state publicly when the new stadium financing was in place that they would still develop Ballpark Village as planned and did not say that that was contingent upon any TIF from the city.

TheWayoftheArch wrote:The Cardinals deal for development is with the City of St. Louis, and when they had to privately fund the stadium they scaled the agreement back from the full 6 blocks to only 2 of them, devloped by 2008/9. But there is still an agreement, with penalties for those 2 blocks.

Thanks for the clarification. I assume those are the two blocks where they are building the Cardinals museum and the public plaza?



Are the Cardinals committed to developing anything else? If that was all the city got in exchange for the ticket tax rebate, no wonder they are so adamant about not backing the TIF bonds.

So maybe the city should use eminent domain to take over the property and open the bidding for developing that property to a lot more developers.



I think most developers have been offering home owners current use market value, not speculative developer value. The people living in Richmond Heights will get no more than $200K per house, so a developer can put a $189 million development on the same property.



So what is the current use value of an empty dirt lot? Can't be much.

I try to follow what is going on in St. Louis as much as I possibly can, but being at work when I access the stlouiscity.com website to see what is going on in the city, is limited somewhat because of my being at work, my supervisor, and being on a government installation. I' ve said all of that to say this, does this mean there is not going to be any residential towers in BPV?? I could be wrong, but I thought that the Cardinals agreed to build BPV to inlcude the towers and any other attractions/development associated with BPV? Did all of the ones who were excited about this happening, misunderstand?? Or are the Cardinals and Cordish renigging on their commitment to building this project? I'm saddened to say the least. We just can't have a big 'hole' right in the middle of downtown.

No, it's a negotiation. With or without tax credits, there is too much money to be made not to put up residential towers in BPV. I wouldn't worry about it at all. They can complain about not having money, but it's a lie. They're trying to negotiate. If they were hard up for cash, they could easily sell that property out the wazoo.

Residential density is coming about the new ballpark to the west (Cupples), east (Pointe400) and south (S.4th/Ice House/Chouteau's Lake/Landing). If the Cards' owners want to pretend they'll only build a few bars, restaurants and a plaza, I think the City can safely call their bluff. The site is surrounded by expanding residential, the team owners are obliged to build something, Cordish is already in town with plans in hand, and money is to be made. Call their bluff, Francis!

southslider wrote:Residential density is coming about the new ballpark to the west (Cupples), east (Pointe400) and south (S.4th/Ice House/Chouteau's Lake/Landing). If the Cards' owners want to pretend they'll only build a few bars, restaurants and a plaza, I think the City can safely call their bluff. The site is surrounded by expanding residential, the team owners are obliged to build something, Cordish is already in town with plans in hand, and money is to be made. Call their bluff, Francis!

I suspect the negotiation is not so much about whether there will BE a TIF or not. Ostensibly, it is over city backing of the TIF bonds, but I really can't see that being a sticking point. I think (or hope) that the negotiation is about the quality of the development vs. the amount of the TIF, i.e. 'ok we'll give you your TIF, but you are going to build underground parking, bring in high quality retailers, and build progressively designed towers worthy of such a high-profile development.'

jlblues wrote: I think (or hope) that the negotiation is about the quality of the development vs. the amount of the TIF, i.e. 'ok we'll give you your TIF, but you are going to build underground parking, bring in high quality retailers, and build progressively designed towers worthy of such a high-profile development.'

Yeah, that would be nice, but, frankly, that doesn't sound like the voice of City Government talking. I'm sure it's all about dollars.

jlblues wrote:I think (or hope) that the negotiation is about the quality of the development vs. the amount of the TIF, i.e. 'ok we'll give you your TIF, but you are going to build underground parking, bring in high quality retailers, and build progressively designed towers worthy of such a high-profile development.'

And I sincerely hope you're right!



Like Framer said, that doesn't sound like the city government I know, but perhaps the powers that be will surprise us.

ThreeOneFour wrote:And I sincerely hope you're right!



Like Framer said, that doesn't sound like the city government I know, but perhaps the powers that be will surprise us.

I would agree, except for this; at no time in the last 40 years or so has the city had the kind of leverage in a negotiation that it does now (at least in regards to the Ballpark Village project)

^ Excellent point- this time it really is different.

This project is just as confusing as Gateway Village (The Bottle District).



Consider the following quote from this KC Star article about Ballpark Village: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 827916.htm



"Three towers would rise about 25 stories and include retail and office space on lower levels, then up to 1,200 residential units on higher floors. Some of the apartments, too, might have views into the stadium."



Now, consider that the Park East Tower is 26 stories tall and has 89 residential units (granted there are 6 or 7 levels of parking below the residential).



In order to fit 1200 residential units in three 25 story buildings, the buildings would have to be, quite literally, as long and wide as they are tall, or the units would have to be very small. 1200 units, even averaging 1250 square feet (small) would be 1,500,000 SF. Throw in hallways and all of that supposed office and retail space on the lower levels of the buildings and you are probably close to 2,000,000 SF. That is the size of two Met Square buildings!



I would say the reporter doesn't know what they are talking about, except that they actually quote Bill DeWitt in the article. So, what is going on here?

LOL at least they are giving us something to talk about ha ha. I just want to see something happen with this project, as the longer that area stays empty the worse it looks in general on TV to the rest of the country and out of towners.

jfknet wrote:LOL at least they are giving us something to talk about ha ha. I just want to see something happen with this project, as the longer that area stays empty the worse it looks in general on TV to the rest of the country and out of towners.

Maybe they should just smooth over the site and plant grass...cuz as we all know, downtown just doesn't have enough green space.

The 1200 units doesn't mean they are specific to the towers. The entire site is supposed to contain that many. Personally, I think they should shoot for more. Just because I think this area would be the most desired place to live in all of St. Louis. Why stop at 25 stories? You can go higher on one or two and still get a great view of the rest of downtown. I think a 50 story tower towards the western side of the site would be about right.



Either that or start ripping down or building on top of Stadium East and West parking garages.

I would also vote for tearing down both East and West parking garages and use those as building pad sites (they will still be supported with structured parking, but that is some prime real estate currently occupied with some rather ugly parking structures).

These are the most current renderings and info from http://www.cordish.com









"Ballpark Village is a $650 million mixed-use retail/entertainment and residential district being developed in partnership by The St. Louis Cardinals and The Cordish Company. Ballpark Village will cover six city blocks that will directly connect to the new Busch Stadium, which opened in the spring of 2006. Ballpark Village will feature approximately 450,000 square feet of retail/entertainment, 1,200 residential units, 300,000 square feet of office and 2,000 parking spaces. Located in the heart of downtown St. Louis, MO, Ballpark Village will be a world class district that will redefine the Gateway to the West." - Cordish.com





I see that there is a fourth building that is about 15 stories (to the far left). However, it also appears that the second building from the right is quite a bit taller than 25 stories, so who knows how current these renderings are.



In any case, if you add up all the office, retail and residential space in the quote above, it would be well over 2,000,000 SF. I just can't imagine how they are going to fit all of that space, the public plaza and 2000 parking spaces on that site without building something taller than 25 stories...



It is just surprising that demolition and construction have been more or less done for months now, and it doesn't seem like Cordish or the Cardinals even have any idea what they are going to build yet. This project has been planned for so long, you'd think they would have been ready to break ground as soon as the new stadium was open. I think this site is going to be a dirt patch for quite awhile.

I hope that in the next 5 years, we will see the value of land go up so those garages will be a money pit instead of a cash cow. To be able to tear them down, and build an extension to the BPV neighborhood would be valuable for downtown.



I understand that 45,000 people need a place to park for Cards games, but you can decrease parking around the stadium and still have plenty of parking in the area. Or at the very least, open up the street level for retail development so we don't have empty street space.

While I'm no fan of the stadium garages, it would probably be pretty tough to tear them down - Stadium West, especially, since it provides parking for the Eagleton Courthouse, BofA Plaza, 1010 Market Street, etc. in addition to being used for baseball. Stadium East might be another story since the Equitable and Deloitte buildings are the only large office buildings in the vicinity.



Maybe they could support additional floors as the Kiener Garages supposedly do?

I'm sure it would take an appropriate sequence of events before these 2 parking structures would be torn down (adequate parking provided in TBV buildings or surrounding developments - similar to the LoDo part of downtown Denver after Coors Field was developed). I think Trent is correct, at that point (flanked by thriving developments) those pieces of real estate become too valuable to only be used for parking structures - they would have to be removed and replaced with hopefully some mixed-use high rise buildings (supporting structured parking, retail on the first floor, commercial above and residential above that). These could be fantastic links to TBV from the CBD.