JCity wrote:I don't like the fact that they're grading the site. I think it means it will be a great little grass block for the all star game.
You THINK right.
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You THINK right.
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Great- now all the site needs is some grass and asphalt. Yeehaw.
ThreeOneFour wrote:Great- now all the site needs is some grass and asphalt. Yeehaw.
MAJOR ANNOUNCMENT: At this point it is safe to say that we are either going to get grass and asphalt or we aren't.
...and tents. Don't forget the Al Hrabosky's-style semi-permanent mullet-collecting tents.ThreeOneFour wrote:Great- now all the site needs is some grass and asphalt...
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If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:
This project was never going to be built. It was always going to be a parking lot. I never doubted the insincerity of the Cardinals organization for a second, and neither should any of you. The penalties were too little, the reward of not building too great, and the city was the coallition of the willing the whole time in this raping of the city fabric.
Shame on all of you for thinking any different.
This project was never going to be built. It was always going to be a parking lot. I never doubted the insincerity of the Cardinals organization for a second, and neither should any of you. The penalties were too little, the reward of not building too great, and the city was the coallition of the willing the whole time in this raping of the city fabric.
Shame on all of you for thinking any different.
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A crude and quiet panorama of vacant blocks, 9/30/08,
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migueltejada wrote:If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:
This project was never going to be built. It was always going to be a parking lot.
Care to make it interesting?
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migueltejada wrote:If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:
This project was never going to be built. It was always going to be a parking lot. I never doubted the insincerity of the Cardinals organization for a second, and neither should any of you. The penalties were too little, the reward of not building too great, and the city was the coallition of the willing the whole time in this raping of the city fabric.
I've had my doubts about this project for some time, mostly because the onus has been on the Cardinals since they announced their plans, and they have done very little to demonstrate good faith to the people of this community or to their partners in the process.
Shame on all of you for thinking any different.
That's a bit gratuitous, don't you think?
Yeah, I'm disappointed, but I take no pleasure in telling others "I told you so". If anything, I'm less disappointed about the project than I am about the lowered expectations that come with it. In other words, I was less interested in a collection of theme restaurants and more interested in the idea that St. Louis could dream big and achieve big results as it has many times in the past. Instead, the sight of an empty lot years after plans were repeatedly announced and revised, and as several projected groundbreakings came and went, this just feeds into the wounded collective psyche of our community.
Despite some recent setbacks and disappointments, St. Louis has made great strides this decade. We cannot let the disappointment surrounding this development- or the lull in activity that has accompanied our nation's tanking economy- discourage us when St. Louis still has so much potential.
I've long heard rumors the ownership planned to sell the team and the Ballpark Village site (vacant or not) now that Busch Stadium III has been built. IMHO, that would be the best thing that could happen for Ballpark Village, and Cardinals baseball for that matter.
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^ mildly. 
I do take pleasure in telling people I told you so, but not as much as I would if they'd actually built something that works. What frustrates me to no end was the lack of critical scrutiny people had in regards to this project. How could anyone ever think that this project would go ahead as anything other than a parking lot when the penalties for not building were LESS than the projected cost of the project! C'mon people, think a little bit!
Why would a BASEBALL TEAM - let me repeat that - A BASEBALL TEAM, WHO'S SOLE BUSINESS IS BASEBALL - get into the property development business? What purpose would it serve them? Cardinal fans are still turning up in droves. They don't care about the old Busch, they just care about the product on the field, and if the team is winning, the Cardinals could tear down the Arch itself for extra parking. The wishes and sentiments of the public don't translate well to real life business practices.
Of course, the Cardinals aren't the villian here, it's the city and state for being complicit. Everyone and their grandmother knew they wouldn't build without penalites - but the penalties were WAY too low, and whose fault is that? Those who brokered the original deal. Blame the market all you want to - this should have been under construction 3 years ago before this all happened.
I wanna know where's the accountability? I'm seriously waiting for Cardinals ownership to stand up and say - "What are you, nuts? Of course we'd never build! Go ask Slay why not, he'll show you the agreement. I can't believe that joker signed it!"
...sigh....
I do take pleasure in telling people I told you so, but not as much as I would if they'd actually built something that works. What frustrates me to no end was the lack of critical scrutiny people had in regards to this project. How could anyone ever think that this project would go ahead as anything other than a parking lot when the penalties for not building were LESS than the projected cost of the project! C'mon people, think a little bit!
Why would a BASEBALL TEAM - let me repeat that - A BASEBALL TEAM, WHO'S SOLE BUSINESS IS BASEBALL - get into the property development business? What purpose would it serve them? Cardinal fans are still turning up in droves. They don't care about the old Busch, they just care about the product on the field, and if the team is winning, the Cardinals could tear down the Arch itself for extra parking. The wishes and sentiments of the public don't translate well to real life business practices.
Of course, the Cardinals aren't the villian here, it's the city and state for being complicit. Everyone and their grandmother knew they wouldn't build without penalites - but the penalties were WAY too low, and whose fault is that? Those who brokered the original deal. Blame the market all you want to - this should have been under construction 3 years ago before this all happened.
I wanna know where's the accountability? I'm seriously waiting for Cardinals ownership to stand up and say - "What are you, nuts? Of course we'd never build! Go ask Slay why not, he'll show you the agreement. I can't believe that joker signed it!"
...sigh....
We all have our own take, ideas, expectations, opinions, etc... on this project. But let's not "assume" anything.
If you have real news on the projects - post them/it.
If you have real news on the projects - post them/it.
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migueltejada wrote:Why would a BASEBALL TEAM - let me repeat that - A BASEBALL TEAM, WHO'S SOLE BUSINESS IS BASEBALL - get into the property development business? What purpose would it serve them?
The Cards' owners are involved in more than just baseball.
Why would the Yankees and Red Sox own their own TV stations? Why would the Patriots develop Patriot Place? Why would you not leverage your existing succesful business into other revenue streams?
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migueltejada wrote:I do take pleasure in telling people I told you so
Same argument my 5 year old nephew used...I shall give the same credence to this argument as I do his. I told you so, really? Rather weak in my opinion..typically I would expect better...apparently I am wrong.
migueltejada wrote:Why would a BASEBALL TEAM - let me repeat that - A BASEBALL TEAM, WHO'S SOLE BUSINESS IS BASEBALL - get into the property development business? .
Diversification would be the reason I see. Investment. The Cardinals are after all a company who's sole purpose is generate revenue.
I don't understand why folks are closing the door on BPV, it has barely been a month since new plans where revealed.
keef227 wrote:I don't understand why folks are closing the door on BPV, it has barely been a month since new plans where revealed.
Take a look at the track record. You can't honestly blame us. Announcements and "New Plans" mean absolutely nothing...
No new plans have been revealed, just wide ranges of potential space, containing a variety of possible uses, in an overall development where the best guess on Ballpark Village that anyone can give, of those intimately involved with the deal, is that it, paraphrasing, "either will or will not get done".keef227 wrote:I don't understand why folks are closing the door on BPV, it has barely been a month since new plans where revealed.
Add to this the fact that no contractor has been selected and only one tenant has been announced, and the now frog-sphincter-tight capital markets - which are going to be that way for quite awhile - and I'd say there is plenty of reasonable cause for skepticism.
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Project: Ballpark Village
$600 million, Downtown
Developers: Cordish Co., St. Louis Cardinals
Status: Bond closing set for spring 2009. A public hearing on the subsidy package set for Oct. 22.
What They’re Saying:
“Projects like Ballpark Village, with great tenants in a world-class location, always get developed,” said Cardinals President Bill DeWitt III. “Ballpark Village has its private financing in place, and we are simply waiting on the city to complete its bond financing.” He did not name the lenders involved.
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... tory1.html
^Unless someone gave them a blank check, I don't see how they could have "private financing in place", when they don't even know what they are going to build.
According to a Business Journal article from Sept. 12, a public hearing will be held tomorrow Oct. 22, 2008 on Ballpark Village. Does anyone know if this is still going to happen tomorrow and if so will they detail more of the new plans? (Also in the article it shows that the development plan would be on file Oct. 8th).......
I don't know, but they have planted grass seed on the graded ground, so I would assume nothing will happen until after the all star game...which now is only about 8 months away anyway.
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mophipsi wrote:I don't know, but they have planted grass seed on the graded ground, so I would assume nothing will happen until after the all star game...which now is only about 8 months away anyway.
Wow Shocking (sarcasm)
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Look - I'm skeptical this will get built too but it should be noted that the cardinals owners have NEVER been "just a baseball" company. They own the parking lots - they own radio stations - they own other things.
as for why they would build it if the penalties are lower than the cost of construction - well that's simple isn't it? Because it would make money. Maybe the current market conditions can't support it, but like many have said on this forum before: if you can't sell real estate with a view INTO Busch Stadium then this city should just pack up and go somewhere else. Likewise if you cant sell office space overlooking the stadium (and with walls that get broadcasted to millions of people throughout the year). I mean its a no brainer. Its like owning ocean front property.
as for why they would build it if the penalties are lower than the cost of construction - well that's simple isn't it? Because it would make money. Maybe the current market conditions can't support it, but like many have said on this forum before: if you can't sell real estate with a view INTO Busch Stadium then this city should just pack up and go somewhere else. Likewise if you cant sell office space overlooking the stadium (and with walls that get broadcasted to millions of people throughout the year). I mean its a no brainer. Its like owning ocean front property.
This should come as no supprise.....but according to and interview with Bill DeWitt III on KMOX "Ballpark Village Bonds "Uncertain" Amid Market Turmoil"
http://www.kmox.com/Ballpark-Village-Bo ... ur/3189844
I personally still believe this project will happen however!!!
http://www.kmox.com/Ballpark-Village-Bo ... ur/3189844
I personally still believe this project will happen however!!!