urbanSTL

Sounds to me like the guy just doesn't want his "million dollar" buyers scared away before they sink their money into his condos. Let's not let a little reality cloud the view!

Jeff Vanderlou wrote:Those who think BPV will be some sort of Rockefeller Center in NYC, with soaring signature residential towers and unique shops, are going to be dissapointed.

Well, I never was delusional enough to think it'd be a Rockefeller Center type of development.

Jeff Vanderlou wrote:The Cards got their new stadium by dangling the prospects of a unique urban development under our noses, but now that the ballpark is done, this project will likely be scaled way back. The result will be lot of chain restauants, a few (workforce) apartments and a lot of tired plazas, filled only at game time.

And how do you know this? Or are you simply prognosticating?



With all due respect, I hope you're wrong. At any rate, I think some of us are reading too much into that quote. I wouldn't take this one quote as a reliable indicator that the Cardinals may scale back their plans.

The people in this city are obsessed with their stupid views. There is more to city life than what you see out your stupid window while you're watching Seinfeld reruns.



"Oh my god, I can't see the arch or into Busch stadium from 300 feet away!"

SShoe wrote:The people in this city are obsessed with their stupid views. There is more to city life than what you see out your stupid window while you're watching Seinfeld reruns.

No kidding. I can think of a time when there was an even more absurd complaint about blocked vistas, however...



It was about 11-12 years ago when eastbound Highway 40 commuters complained as they realized the then-under construction Eagleton Courthouse blocked their once-unobstructed view of the Gateway Arch. If seeing the GA mattered so much, why not exit at Market and get the best view from the west? Of course, all of this carping begged another question, how much time did these people spend with both of their eyes on the road?



If people lose their views, too bad. It's the evolution of the urban landscape. (I'm not suggesting they have no right to opine about what's going up next door, but sometimes there seems to be an obstructionist mentality toward new construction when it affects someone's views.)



Perhaps people are spoiled because we haven't seen this much construction activity downtown in decades. I think the Cardinals can position the buildings to preserve prime views of the Gateway Arch without scaling back their proposal or redesigning their structures solely to conform to the wishes of other downtown property owners. It's in the Cardinals' best interest to promote the best and highest use of that land- and I'm not buying any conspiracy theories about scaling down the project until I hear it directly from Cardinals owners and/or upper management.

This is a bit different though. People can and will pay millions of dollars for their views into the stadium and the issue is: "is this a good investment?"



Either a) People are going to want to spend a million dollars for a priceless view of the ballpark, or b) the Hilton will not put their top floors on the market for condiminiums and more taller buildings will be placed in front of it, effectively trading the view to the new building.



It's not like anyone lives and dies based on whehter or not we have views of the ballpark from specific buildings. No one is privileging the Hilton views over development in Ballpark village. It is just that some people are actually considering putting these top floors on the market, and at a high cost. I don't blame them for their concern. If Ballpark Village wants to build more towers, they will. And it's a shoe-in profit-wise if you ask me.

^ Good points. I think it's quite possible to build the three residential towers proposed for Ballpark Village WHILE preserving the ballpark views from the upper floors of the Hilton. Whether it's done, how it's done, or whether it's a priority for the Cardinals, Cordish, or the city...all of this remains to be seen of course.

Who's the backward thinking genius in charge of this idea?

"Hey neighbor, you'll have to build shorter so my view will be unobstructed."

How about treating this like any other big city where demand rules. If you want a good view, build closer or build taller.

SShoe wrote:The people in this city are obsessed with their stupid views. There is more to city life than what you see out your stupid window while you're watching Seinfeld reruns.



"Oh my god, I can't see the arch or into Busch stadium from 300 feet away!"

First of all, I don't think it's fair to say this is a St. Louis thing, people in New Jersey are obsessed with Mahattan skyline views, in SoCal thier obsessed with ocean views etc. Being obsessed with views just means you have some things worth viewing.



Second, maybe I'm missing something, but what right does Hilton have to ballpark views? Did they contribute money to the ballpark or to ballpark village? The land belongs to the Cards. If Hilton wants views, let them pay for the "air rights" above the BV towers, similar to how they do it in Manhattan when issues like this arise.

It seems that the pavilon might possibly have "some" view of the ballpark after all the phases of the last BV rendering are completed. The view will be between towers and likely one would only see the outfield or infield depending on which Pavilon Tower one's in.







IHO... My advice save your pennies for the BV.



IHO... There is no way developer's of the BV are gonna sacrifice a whole tower (or towers) of ballpark view condos/apartments so the top 4 floors of the Pavilon (a whole block away) have an unobstructed view. Theres way to much $$ to be made.



IHO... concluding from one quotation that the BV is just a scam is way too pesimistic.

Looks like the new tower on the far right blocks the view of the old courthouse. That's too bad. I like a skyline with some non-boxy shapes in it. The Arch, Old Courthouse, and Millenium Hotel Tower keep the view interesting.

First of all, the BV won't be scaled back. And Jeff Vanderlou must be crazy if he thinks the Cards owners are happy with what they have. They also have the land that the old stadium was built on, and are going to invest a ton of money into a complex that will be wildly popular in St. Louis, and have people spending out of their mind to live there. I mean, they sold URINALS from the old Busch, and people ate it up. What wouldn't they do for a condo with a view of the field?



So the Hilton won't have their million dollar views, oh well. I think they'd make a mistake turning those rooms into condos anyway. The # of hotel rooms in STL is shrinking, and Hilton can make some very good cash by having their hotel so close to BV and the new stadium.

Hilton's idea of putting super expensive condos in their upper floors goes to show you that Ballpark Village is HOT property. I hope hotels keep reducing the number of rooms they have, then when the convention/travel industry really picks up, we will see a need for a brand new hotel.

I also don't see how adding three new towers takes away from the view. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that it would enhance not detract the current landscape. The current view consists mainly of older midrise, and by adding something closer you will also create contrast instead of everything being so far away as it appears now. That chunk of land is much too big, and important, to worry about giving the hilton a better view lol.

Article in this week's Business Journal:

Cordish seeks millions in city subsidy



Now that the new Busch Stadium is up and running, the vast hole where the old stadium once stood next door stands out like a Cubs jersey at a Cardinals home game.



Construction is tentatively set to begin there on the $650 million Ballpark Village as soon as this fall, with a two-year construction schedule.



Baltimore-based Cordish Co., the developer of the mixed-use retail/entertainment and residential district, has leased space at the Bank of America Plaza to serve as its local office, which it expects to open in July with 15 employees. Blake Cordish, vice president of the company and son of its founder, David Cordish, will oversee the St. Louis project.

http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... tory1.html

Well, my first reaction was ?Let the shakedown begin?, but it looks like Cordish has received hefty subsidies in their other projects, and delivered on their promises of national retailers and foot traffic. The article makes the point that downtown has many projects (chouteau?s lake, BD, riverfront) and perhaps the money would best be used elsewhere, but as this is the first of these major projects to get underway, I?d say it?s even more important that it be seen as a success.

At least they confirmed the three towers as well.



"Cordish has confirmed that Ballpark Village will span six city blocks, have 360,000 square feet of retail and entertainment tenants, 1,200 residential units in three towers, 300,000 square feet of office space and 2,000 parking spaces."



That should put to rest the "Blocking the Hiltons view" controversy.

And it also looks like they have bumped it from $450 million to $650 million.

The only concern I have with Cordish is that they'll give us the exact same tenants that their KC and Louisville developments have - Lucky Strike, Red Star Tavern, etc. While I do think an ESPN Zone would be a good fit, I hope that this development maintains some sort of uniqueness.

DeBaliviere wrote:The only concern I have with Cordish is that they'll give us the exact same tenants that their KC and Louisville developments have - Lucky Strike, Red Star Tavern, etc. While I do think an ESPN Zone would be a good fit, I hope that this development maintains some sort of uniqueness.

I wouldn't count on it. The "sameness" is what attracts the tourists. They want the same exact thing they can get at home, for some strange reason.



And I would guess from a developers perspective, it is easier to go with a sure thing.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:


I wouldn't count on it. The "sameness" is what attracts the tourists. They want the same exact thing they can get at home, for some strange reason.

That's pretty much what I'm figuring. At least the Cardinals Museum and Bowling Hall of Fame should help give it a little more of a St. Louis feel.

"Sameness" gets tourists the first time, but a good uniqueness keeps them coming back as well as attracts locals - who make up the majority of downtown traffic and ball game traffic. I think some of the normal tenants will be needed, but I hope at least 50% of the experience is St. Louis based or at least themed.

TheWayoftheArch wrote:Fridays? Lucky Strike? These we do not need.



Espn Zone, Rock Bottom Brewery, Borders?



These I will take.



How about Something Like Crate and Barrel 2...Not so stuffy as CB, bu modern and reasonably Priced...



Just something that no where else in the area has...thats what we need.

Exactly, I've been saying this about downtown on the

Invigorate DT Shopping forum.



DT has to have things that are no where else in the region. Bigger and better are two things that should define our core and its elements.