Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

roy314 · PostSep 24, 2007#23512007-09-24T22:15+00:00

dutchtowner wrote:And then there's this forum's "Class A office space as phallic representation of city's cultural significance" mentality. In other words, no amount of public money is too much if spent on a tall and shiny building, because you can't be a world class city without tall office towers.

Most of the time, tall office towers signify economic vitality in a dense urban environment. It's not surprising they interest the members of this forum. Are you suggesting more office parks?

newstl2020 · PostSep 24, 2007#23522007-09-24T22:29+00:00

BEFORE ANYONE ELSE POSTS ANYTHING IN THIS FORUM PLEASE GO READ SOULARDD'S LAST POST. With this company NEVER in St. Louis we would have NEVER gotten taxes off of this company. YOU CAN'T TAX SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THERE. I do not pretend to know how long it will take Centene to eclipse it's 78 million in taxes, but when that happens, THERE WILL BE NEW TAXES FOR THE CITY THAT MOST LIKELY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE PERIOD HAD THE CITY NOT BEEN COMPETETIVE AND OFFERED TIF.

THE CITY ISN'T LOSING ANYTHING. WE ARE JUST NOT COLLECTING FOR A PERIOD OF TIME

bastiat · PostSep 24, 2007#23532007-09-24T22:30+00:00

Can we cut all of the talk of taxes and corporations and the St. Louis mentality into another thread. I just read through 5 pages of blathering with no direct information about the Ballpark Village...I feel sick now.

newstl2020 · PostSep 24, 2007#23542007-09-24T22:32+00:00

I second that.

I'm assuming the third large tower in the model presented at the Centene anouncement is the tower containing the 250 residential condos. Was this officially moved into Phase 1 or is this still Phase 2 development?

soulardd · PostSep 24, 2007#23552007-09-24T22:33+00:00

^I'm sorry to have been such a big part of those last 5 pages, but I wasn't about to let the false statements and assumptions go unchecked.

innov8ion · PostSep 24, 2007#23562007-09-24T22:33+00:00

bonwich wrote:^ Did he? Somehow I didn't see "intelligent people who don't try to find the worst in everything" in his original definition of "the St. Louis mentality."

I did see, however, the hipper-than-thou-St. Louis-mentality, which roughly could be defined as "I don't agree with you, so I'll just say that you're always negative."

Inquiring about ROI numbers and breakeven points for city investments are part of being a good citizen. But panning a given project based upon nothing but simple conjecture and a negative attitude is plain hogwash.

TWA happened. So what? Move on. If Centene goes away in the future, no city monies are lost.

soulardd · PostSep 24, 2007#23572007-09-24T22:38+00:00

newstl2020 wrote:I second that.

I'm assuming the third large tower in the model presented at the Centene anouncement is the tower containing the 250 residential condos. Was this officially moved into Phase 1 or is this still Phase 2 development?

I hope it's in Phase 1. Maybe then the demand will be shown and the possibility for more residential will be presented in Phase 2.

arch city · PostSep 24, 2007#23582007-09-24T22:41+00:00

citywatcher · PostSep 24, 2007#23592007-09-24T22:41+00:00

I got my 2 towers

Thats all I care about.

And they are TALL too...

doug · PostSep 24, 2007#23602007-09-24T22:43+00:00

I think a key part of the St. Louis Mentality is our traditionalistic political culture. We are the Show Me State. Rather than pioneer and bring about innovative ways, we must be shown them. I think this is why we are generally 20 years behind everyone for basically everything. And I think this is why we don't attract a lot of innovative thinkers, and why our advocates are often ostracized to the point that they move to a City which appreciates their talent or objective thought, or they become disengaged. Those who are best served by this tradition are afraid of those advocates. When the standards are low, those with less ability or will are more aptly qualified for the position. If the standards are higher, perhaps they could not reach them.

soulardd · PostSep 24, 2007#23612007-09-24T22:48+00:00

Doug wrote:I think a key part of the St. Louis Mentality is our traditionalistic political culture. We are the Show Me State. Rather than pioneer and bring about innovative ways, we must be shown them. I think this is why we are generally 20 years behind everyone for basically everything. And I think this is why we don't attract a lot of innovative thinkers, and why our advocates are often ostracized to the point that they move to a City which appreciates their talent or objective thought, or they become disengaged. Those who are best served by this tradition are afraid of those advocates. When the standards are low, those with less ability or will are more aptly qualified for the position. If the standards are higher, perhaps they could not reach them.

^How did that just come from the guy who couldn't grasp the fact that we aren't paying a dime to get Centene to come to the city?

I see your reasoning, Doug, and I think what you say is something to consider so that we can raise the bar for the future. That being said, I think we are 20 years behind everyone else because while other cities were figuring out ways to do things successfully, we were too busy thinking of reasons that we couldn't or shouldn't do them. Rather than face the challeges the city presented in an effort to improve city life, St. Louisans gave up on the city. It took awhile, but I think we're realizing that that was a big mistake.

arch city · PostSep 24, 2007#23622007-09-24T22:52+00:00

Roy314 wrote:Most of the time, tall office towers signify economic vitality in a dense urban environment.

Bingo!

There's a reason why Clayton and Creve Coeur have seen more office towers go up versus downtown St. Louis over the last 10-15 years. Now it's St. Louis City's turn.

keef227 · PostSep 24, 2007#23632007-09-24T23:03+00:00

Yes more towers. I knew my city would pull through and make this happen.

debaliviere · PostSep 24, 2007#23642007-09-24T23:23+00:00

I look forward to seeing one of our PhotoShop experts superimpose the new tower into a pic of the St. Louis skyline.

trent · PostSep 24, 2007#23652007-09-24T23:34+00:00

Are we back on track yet? Is it safe to come out?

MattnSTL · PostSep 24, 2007#23662007-09-24T23:43+00:00

I'm rather interested in finding out how they plan to do the wood grain on the facade.

stlmizzoutiger · PostSep 24, 2007#23672007-09-24T23:48+00:00

Doug wrote:we basically gave Centene a financial incentive to create new jobs which will probably take employees from other local companies.

By that logic, who takes the jobs that the "other local companies" now have openings for? People from outside of the St. Louis area!?!?!? I doubt that everyone who takes one of the 1,200 new jobs is from the St. Louis Metro already and even if they were, somewhere down the chain some people from outside of the St. Louis area will likely take a job that a St. Louis person quit to work at Centene. It's simple logic.

Alex Ihnen · PostSep 24, 2007#23682007-09-24T23:59+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:I'm rather interested in finding out how they plan to do the wood grain on the facade.

Yes, is that Teak or Walnut?

Anyway, it looks like two towers in this development (Centene) and another about midway east/west in the project. I wouldn't be surprise to see another at the west end. Also, did anyone else notice that the SE corner of BPV is blank in the new model - what goes there? Wasn't this originally a residential tower?

stlmizzoutiger · PostSep 25, 2007#23692007-09-25T00:05+00:00

Are they still building anything at the intersection of Clark and Broadway? That seems like a prime place to build but it looks like "green space" in the Centene model.

xing · PostSep 25, 2007#23702007-09-25T00:09+00:00

Those 2 little stubs, the parking garages along the gateway mall, are begging to get filled in with something better.

stlmike · PostSep 25, 2007#23712007-09-25T00:48+00:00

It looks like, in the above rendering, there is space for another tower in the corner and it also looks like the floorplan that involved a plaza is out of the picture. Either that or this model is inaccurate.

timeforguinness · PostSep 25, 2007#23722007-09-25T01:19+00:00

Xing wrote:

Those 2 little stubs, the parking garages along the gateway mall, are begging to get filled in with something better.

Loving it...brings much needed density south of the mall.

gary kreie · PostSep 25, 2007#23732007-09-25T01:25+00:00

stlmike wrote:It looks like, in the above rendering, there is space for another tower in the corner and it also looks like the floorplan that involved a plaza is out of the picture. Either that or this model is inaccurate.

This picture was in the Post Dispatch. It still shows the Plaza:

b777stl · PostSep 25, 2007#23742007-09-25T01:33+00:00

Glad to see Centene downtown...Although it is unfortunate for Clayton, being downtown will not only benefit downtown, this project will benefit the entire area. As for Clayton-I'm sure they'll get another project for that strip of land in the immediate future...

gary kreie · PostSep 25, 2007#23752007-09-25T01:41+00:00

I think I heard the Mayor say that the City Earnings tax money earned from the new employees of the Centene in the city would be poured back into the project as part of the subsidy. This seems a little odd. So by moving to St. Louis, Centene effectively gives everyone a 1% negative raise (via the city) and keeps the money. Why doesn't Centene just give everyone a 1% pay cut and call it even.

How about this - the city gets the 1% earnings tax from the Centene employees. Then gives it to Centene as part of the subsidy. Then Centene gives its employees a 1% raise to make of for loss of income due to the earnings tax. Its the money laundering merri-go-round. And everyone is thrilled.

Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

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