urbanSTL

Now if we could only fix up Kiel... We could have the neighboring "Opera Village".... I'd buy into that.

Did anyone watch news coverage of this announcement on Tuesday evening? Thanks to the Internet, I was able to view coverage of all three channels. (I'm sorry, KPLR isn't a real news channel, even if Melanie Moon is a compelling reason to watch.)



Anyway, KMOV and KTVI ran the Ballpark Village announcement as their top story on the 5:00 and 6:00 newscasts. KMOV did well enough, but KTVI went one step further by having Charles Jaco report on the development. Jaco has covered Ballpark Village from the beginning, and he has impressed me with his fair and even-handed coverage of the developments along the way. He's reflected positively on the progress while offering healthy and justified skepticism wherever appropriate.



[rant]



Meanwhile, over at the station where the news ostensibly "comes first", the Ballpark Village story didn't run until around ten minutes after the hour on the 5:00 and 6:00 newscasts, well after the nightly "No Sh!t Sherlock, It's Hotter Than Hell in St. Louis" fluff piece.



Their cub reporter (whom I've never seen before) kept referring to the hole where Ballpark Village should stand. Fair enough. Then he said it should've been done by 2006. In a perfect world, yes, but there were delays in securing stadium financing that inevitably pushed back the original target dates for Ballpark Village, since it occupies most of the former Busch Stadium site, a detail he conveniently forgot to mention.



Then, on the 6:00 newscast, someone pulled Fred Lindecke out from under his rock in West County. You might remember Fred as the leader of the Coalition Against Public Funding For Stadiums, the rabblerouser whose efforts led to voter approval of a measure to force a public vote for future stadium funding requests in the City of St. Louis. I also remember when Mayor Francis Slay said, "Fred doesn't live in the city. He doesn't pay taxes in the city, and he doesn't care about the city". Anyway...



Fred, as expected, moaned and groaned about public funding for Ballpark Village, saying the billionaire owners could afford the infrastructure improvements for which the city and state are providing incentives. Of course, Mr. Lindecke failed to mention that the city played hardball and won, by not guaranteeing a penny of the bonds issued for construction (Kansas City guaranteed every penny) and by securing at least 250 condos in the first phase.



I wonder why we've never seen Fred's outrage, or any significant outrage in the hinterlands, when MasterCard and CitiMortgage received tens of millions in state incentives to move from Maryland Heights and Ellisville to O'Fallon? Or what about the countless abuses of TIF that have led to taxpayer-supported shopping centers in Chesterfield floodplains, atop the bluffs in Fenton, or in the heavily blighted suburb of Des Peres?



TIF has long been used by area suburbs to siphon businesses and jobs from neighboring communities, and the outrage is minimal. But if we dare to use incentives for a large-scale project that will complement the ongoing renaissance in the region's dining, entertainment, and cultural center, the opposition seems to be strong!



I just don't get it.



And yes, I sent a love letter to KSDK addressing these points and others. I'm not in love with any of our local media outlets, but KSDK IMHO is the biggest joke overall.



[/rant]

JMedwick wrote:KSDK, where soccer moms come first.

...where the functionally illiterate come first



...where insecure bigots come first.



...where anybody but people actually from Saint Louis comes first.



Seriously, why is it that the weather people never tell you what the temperature is in Saint Louis? It's always "89 in Chesterfield valley, 90 in St. Charles, and over in Belleville, it's a cool 85." What? I realize the airport is the "official" place for Saint Louis weather, but it would be nice to see the metropole included in the weather segment. God I hate local news.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:They tell you the temperature in St. Louis numerous times during the newscast.

They tell you the temp at the airport, which was my point. I do concede, however, that KSDK will tell you the downtown temp. But we're never on the map.

Not to jump too far off topic, but KMOV shows some slick photos of Lafayette Square, the CWE and Soulard behind their weather stats. Makes me happy.



Back to BPV...

Framer wrote:Everybody talks about condos with a view of the field. But what about the units on the other side of the building...you know, the ones that don't face the field? Of course, they should have a pretty cool view of Downtown and the Arch, but let's face it; they won't be nearly as popular as those facing the stadium.

Every large condo building I have ever heard of has public space on the roof. Hence, those who cannot see the game from their unit will probably be able to go on the roof, chill by the pool, and watch the Redbirds hang a righteous ass-whupping on the Cubs, or whomever happens to be in town that day. Imagine if they put one of those infiniti pools on the stadium-side edge of the condo roof. That would be serious St. Louis luxury.

You know - I can't even comment on the local news because I haven;t watched it in ten years. Does anyone watch local news anymore?

Yeah, but officially the airport = the city. If they started reporting the temp downtown, then the people in Soulard would complain. "how come they never report the temperature in Soulard?"

I think he was expressing the sentiment that most metropolitan areas consider downtown to be the center of the region and use both the airport and downtown as a way of showing the temperature in the center of the city and in a region slightly away from the city.

markofucity wrote:You know - I can't even comment on the local news because I haven;t watched it in ten years. Does anyone watch local news anymore?

I'm watching it on my cell phone right now:



http://www.ppcvidz.com/streams/Page.asp?pro_id=2511



-RBB

DeBaliviere wrote:Not to jump too far off topic, but KMOV shows some slick photos of Lafayette Square, the CWE and Soulard behind their weather stats. Makes me happy.

I've noticed those pictures as well, and I think it's a good way for KMOV to showcase city neighborhoods. Kent Ehrhardt has the Weather Where You Live segment which features temperatures and conditions in various area hamlets, although I don't know what good it does when they feature the same suburbs repeatedly. (I guess the Affton bluehairs are happy, because they always show Affton).



I don't usually have any use for local news unless there's a big story like Ballpark Village where I'm anxious to find out more. I could go further off-topic with a rant about local news and why I don't usually watch it, but I'll just rank the stations in this order: KMOV-KTVI-KSDK. If I were one of the 13 people watching KPLR, I might rank them ahead of KSDK.



Back to Ballpark Village, I think the latest developments are positive and I'm glad the public financing component is finally in place. Like others here, I'd love to see final plans for at least the first phase, but I'm just happy we're one major step closer at this point. And I'm increasingly confident we'll see more highrise condos and hopefully offices now that the first 250 condos have been secured.



I think city leaders like Mayor Slay and Barb Geisman deserve some credit for playing hardball, because there will be at least some condos as part of the final project, and if I understand correctly, the city isn't on the hook for the bonds should the development prove to be less successful than anticipated (unlike St. Louis Centre, the Marketplace, and Kansas City's deal for the Power & Light District).

Most of these 250 condo units will be in the 2 to 3 stories above the retail space, similar to The Boulevard. Just look at the renderings. The units along Clark Street might have views inside the park, but most will not. TGE is correct though, I suspect that there will be a lot of common space on the roof overlooking Busch, to which some or all condo owners will have access.



We might get one "tower" of 15-20 stories or so, unless they combine the residential and office space into one tower. Then it might push 25 stories, but I think this is unlikely. The office space will probably be low-rise as well. I suspect the only "tower" that will be built in Phase 1 is the one in the renderings on the southwest corner of the site, across from the left field entrance to Busch.



Cordish probably always intended to do at least a hundred or so residential units in Phase 1. It never made sense that they would build the retail and then come back in a few years and try to add 2 or 3 stories of residential on top, throughout the entire BPV. I am sure that the whole thing was just a negotiating tactic to try to wring more money out of the city and state.

Do we know yet whether the space in the midrise structures is residential or office space, or a mix of the two uses? It seems to me like those spaces would be better suited for offices than residential, and maybe at some point an office tower will be built if higher profile tenants (major law firms, regional/corporate headquarters, etc.) express an interest in locating there.



I'm not expecting 1200 units like we were originally told even if demand leads to more than 250 condos being built, but I have no reason to expect the worst either. I'll reserve further judgment until we see specifcs from the Cardinals and Cordish about what will be built in Phase I of the project.

^You mean like this?







I am guessing it won't be cheap to get onto those patios.

Now that Cordish/Cardinals has committed to the 250 condos, I don't see why anyone would expect new renderings. I suspect that what will be built won't differ much from the last renderings, minus all but one of the buildings over 8 or so stories, of course. The only building taller than low-rise will probably be the one shown in the SW corner of the site, with the height maybe reduced a bit.



Unless people are expecting to see renderings showing just Phase 1? If that is the case, don't hold your breath.

^ You're probably right, but it still seems like it would make the most sense to build the tower(s) on the SE corner of the site first, as those would be the ones offering the best view inside the ballpark and would therefore sell much more quickly by most accounts.



I don't expect to see revised Phase I renderings, but I hope there's some announcement about the availability of condos or plans for office space so we have an idea about what we can expect in terms of highrise development. And maybe we'll get what we're hoping for based on the renderings, maybe not, but I'll still reserve final judgment until we hear more specifics. Hopefully once the bonds are sold and ground is broken, we'll learn more about specific plans..

Cordish said they would explain what they are going to do in the first phase, but I don't expect renderings. They also said at one point that all the buildings except the true towers would be fully built, and the bases for the towers would be built as well. Not sure if that it still the plan right now, but I would assume so.

I'm expecting at least one highrise office tower. They've hinted at strong interest, and several large firms are scouting for new space.

ThreeOneFour wrote:^ You're probably right, but it still seems like it would make the most sense to build the tower(s) on the SE corner of the site first, as those would be the ones offering the best view inside the ballpark and would therefore sell much more quickly by most accounts.

Umm, yes, but look at it from a developer's perspective. There will be a certain number of people that will pay almost anything for a condo across the street from Busch, no matter what kind of view it has, particularly companies looking for a place to entertain and house clients and people just looking for a party pad. Also, many people may think that these will be the only residential units that will ever get built in BPV, rightly or wrongly. So, by limiting the number of initial condos, you might be able to charge a huge premium for these condos; on your not-so-prime location! In any case, depending on the height, the top 5-10 floors of a building in the SW corner WILL have views into the park and those units WILL go for a very large premium.



So, overall, if you are the developer and you have a couple of really prime locations, and a few not-so-prime locations AND (ostensibly) you have questions about the market, wouldn't you want to build on the not-so-prime locations first? That way, you fill the demand for those that are either not location sensitive or are, for whatever reason, time sensitive. Then you still have ALL of your prime locations to do with as you wish, either build out low-rise or high-rise, upscale or very upscale, once you have determined the demand. And, hopefully, the retail portion of your development will be so successful, demand will be far greater for your condos then it ever would have been initially, with the corresponding premium. If it doesn't, well then those prime locations are prime for office space too!



All of this pretty much applies to office space as well, except office tenants will be a bit more savvy and probably won't pay as much of a premium just to be near the ballpark.

jlblues wrote:So, overall, if you are the developer and you have a couple of really prime locations, and a few not-so-prime locations AND (ostensibly) you have questions about the market, wouldn't you want to build on the not-so-prime locations first? That way, you fill the demand for those that are either not location sensitive or are, for whatever reason, time sensitive. Then you still have ALL of your prime locations to do with as you wish, either build out low-rise or high-rise, upscale or very upscale, once you have determined the demand. And, hopefully, the retail portion of your development will be so successful, demand will be far greater for your condos then it ever would have been initially, with the corresponding premium. If it doesn't, well then those prime locations are prime for office space too!

That actually makes the most sense from the developer's perspective. I'm just anxious to see towers on the most desirable portion of the site.

Framer wrote:I'm expecting at least one highrise office tower. They've hinted at strong interest, and several large firms are scouting for new space.

Maybe, but that won't be Phase 1. They have already said Phase 1 will include 100,000 SF of office space. Phase 1 is only that which will be mostly complete by July 2009.



In the current economic climate, even if there is strong demand for a high-rise office tower, they would have to get leases signed for probably a minimum of 75% of the building. So, lets say 75% of a 700,000 SF building (if we are talking 35 stories or so) assuming it is single-use. That is 525,000 SF. If there is really that much demand, then there would probably be a big push to start Phase 2 immediately after, or perhaps even overlapped with, Phase 1. But you won't see a high-rise office building completed in BPV until at least early 2011. More likely it will be smaller, build-to-suit mid-rise office buildings or mixed-use space closer to the Walnut Street side of BPV.