urbanSTL

My only impression is of Chicken Little. Maybe they should rename that Post-Dispatch bird, "Chicken Little"?



Or, Stuart Smally telling himself that he is good enough, big enough, and bold enough to be a success.



From the horses mouth - developers all over the nation inform St. Louis that the market demand is broad and deep.



Participants in a market perform better with competition. There doesn't have to be just one place and one-at-a-time.



Competition is good. Rinse and repeat.

Maybe I'm just feeling a little negative after going to last night's Cardinal game and sitting in section 346, behind homeplate, with a perfect view of the empty lot.

I don't get an "uh oh" feeling for BPV. It'll happen in some form. But as the article points out (and many folks on this forum have obviously been wondering), there are reasons why ground hasn't been broken yet.

My only impression is of Chicken Little. Maybe they should rename that Post-Dispatch bird, "Chicken Little"?



Or, Stuart Smally telling himself that he is good enough, big enough, and bold enough to be a success.



From the horses mouth - developers all over the nation inform St. Louis that the market demand is broad and deep.



Participants in a market perform better with competition. There doesn't have to be just one place and one-at-a-time.



Competition is good. Rinse and repeat.

Please cite any factual inaccuracies in the article.



Also, is competition good when the free market is heavily distorted by public subsidy? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that such subsidy is efficiently allocated?

I don't get the uh oh feeling either. Obviously, BPV is taking longer then we like, and the lot does not look good. But I see no reason to doubt that BPV will happen. We all know this stuff does not happen over night. Look at the countless other examples of projects that missed their start dates and still rose out of the ground. The Ice house district will surely bring a little competition, but it's a different type of district. No high rises and no residential and office focus. The casino is different from what BPV will be by virtue of it's anchor, a casino. Now we come to the Bottle District. I don't doubt something will rise there as well. The land is just too valuable now. But what will it be, and more importantly, when?



Personally, I'm not worried at all about BPV. It may take a little time, but downtown is growing, and the competition will be good for all of the projects. The later ones may have to change plans a little (Bottle District), but all of the areas can coexist, even build off each other. Having options can only bring more people downtown.

I was surprised that the Cards' owners had not already secured the Bowling Hall of Fame. I thought that was a done deal! In its new location somewhere in BPV, the Bowling Hall of Fame should include a bowling alley. I don't like hearing plans for a bowling alley in TBD with Joe Edwards' lanes (hopefully) opening not too far from there on Washington.



(Pat Welch rocks, btw.)

The Bowling HOF has some lanes already.

Arch City wrote:Bottle Works??!!??

Never underestimate the challenges posed by a Maplewood brewpub.

I wonder if the National Bowling Hall of Fame could move just one block north to the long empty GenAmerica building. The rent is likely too high for this signature office building, despite it sitting vacant for years. Any ideas on alternate locations Downtown?



I don't even see why the NBHOF would necessarily have to stay in the immediate ballpark area. Union Station? The Landing? Even Chesterfield? Hey, they wanted to steal the Symphony for their new "downtown," so I say let them have Bowling.

DeBaliviere wrote:I was surprised that the Cards' owners had not already secured the Bowling Hall of Fame. I thought that was a done deal! In its new location somewhere in BPV, the Bowling Hall of Fame should include a bowling alley. I don't like hearing plans for a bowling alley in TBD with Joe Edwards' lanes (hopefully) opening not too far from there on Washington.



(Pat Welch rocks, btw.)

The whole bowling alley thing in TBD dates to when Joe said he'd do it there. Has anyone ever asked him directly if he really, truly thinks downtown will support two hipster bowling alleys? (Actually, I think no one has ever asked any of the developers du jour of TBD whether the bowling alley was just something Joe said, and now that Joe's out of it, there really isn't a hard plan for a bowling alley.

southslider wrote:I wonder if the National Bowling Hall of Fame could move just one block north to the long empty GenAmerica building. The rent is likely too high for this signature office building, despite it sitting vacant for years.

I like that idea. It would give them a signature building in a prominent location. Also the layout of the building would be ideal for their purposes, not to mention give them their familiar triangular shape

Now we just need their board to get wind of this idea.

Wow. A P-D article with absolutely no news in it. Let's recap:



1) ground hasn't be broken

2) DeWitt says ground will be broken

3) There is competition among restaurants and retail establishments

4) Someone doesn't like emminent domain

5) Some new businesses don't survive

6) Cardinals fans are happier when the team wins



Well, thanks for the rehash. Why don't we just plant some grass and add some green space to downtown - yeah, that's the ticket!

bonwich wrote:The whole bowling alley thing in TBD dates to when Joe said he'd do it there. Has anyone ever asked him directly if he really, truly thinks downtown will support two hipster bowling alleys? (Actually, I think no one has ever asked any of the developers du jour of TBD whether the bowling alley was just something Joe said, and now that Joe's out of it, there really isn't a hard plan for a bowling alley.

Bowling has been dying for 30+ years. The past few years has seen a resurgence as it has become a "hip" activity, but that will soon fade. So yeah, no way there could be 2 bowling alleys downtown, at least not if you wanted both to last more than 2-3 years.



No different than the cigar craze of about 10-12 years ago, really.

^ I'm not so sure about that. I've been bowling regularly for at least the last 6 years and I have always had to wait for lanes, even during the week. It's not even worth going on the weekends with it being so crowded. Depending on the area, many of them are kids who are too young to really go anywhere else so they hang out at the alley for hours on end.

^ If there are 15K people downtwon, thousands more visiting from the larger metro and more coming for the casino/etc, it seems that there could be two smallish bowling alleys. Leagues are still big in many areas.

Grover wrote:Wow. A P-D article with absolutely no news in it. Let's recap:



1) ground hasn't be broken

2) DeWitt says ground will be broken

3) There is competition among restaurants and retail establishments

4) Someone doesn't like emminent domain

5) Some new businesses don't survive

6) Cardinals fans are happier when the team wins



Well, thanks for the rehash. Why don't we just plant some grass and add some green space to downtown - yeah, that's the ticket!

Hmm. DeB, who seems to be interested in the subject, had no idea that the Bowling Hall of Fame was still up in the air. I'd venture to say most vaguely-interested readers might have been under the impression that the financing was finalized. Plus even some of the most plugged-in people on this board didn't even realize that there was no general contractor yet.



Couple that with a single place to show all the varied developments allegedly going on now (and to make the reasonable point that demand for leisure activities, at least in terms of overall area growth, can be questioned) and you got yourself a decent story. I'm sorry none of the content is "news" to you, but all of our readers can't be quite as up to date on everything that's going on down there.

crbswiss wrote:I have no clue as to what their visitation numbers are. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Unless something has changed recently, the attendance figures have been a disaster. Remember, they used to have the whole building to themselves. Now they share it with the Cardinal Hall. I'll let you figure out why.

I'm sorry none of the content is "news" to you, but all of our readers can't be quite as up to date on everything that's going on down there.

True.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

crbswiss wrote:^ I'm not so sure about that. I've been bowling regularly for at least the last 6 years and I have always had to wait for lanes, even during the week. It's not even worth going on the weekends with it being so crowded. Depending on the area, many of them are kids who are too young to really go anywhere else so they hang out at the alley for hours on end.

I said the past few years, but maybe it's been going on for more like 6-7. But there are also far fewer lanes than there used to be. So brief resurgance + far fewer lanes, equals lines to bowl.



Trust me, it won't last.

I bowl in a league at Trop on Wednesday nights, and there has never been a wait for open lanes when I've been there. I've also been by Olivette Lanes many weeknights when you can walk right in. Four Seasons, on the other hand, is crowded almost every day, although the weekend biz seems to be dominated by birthday parties and kiddie bowl.



I still contend this whole "bowling alley in the Bottle District" claim dates to when Joe was still part of the deal, well before he moved over to Wash. Ave.

I think it's so cute how bonwich and CS stick up for their boss.