urbanSTL

Clayton has two 20-30 story towers proposed in the course of less than a month and BPV can't even get one after being under construction for over a year.

Do you think the Cardinals/Cordish aren't as bullish on downtown because of where they're located? There is hardly any residential around them right now, so I assume its pretty empty all day. Maybe for them perception is reality. A few blocks north and downtown has a much different vibe. I'm just speculating though.

I'm as outraged, horrified, and disappointed in the execution of BPV as anyone, but....

Perhaps one reason new construction hasn't sprouted downtown yet (as opposed to the two major proposals in Clayton) is that there is a strong pipeline of apartment redevelopment going on. Namely: The Arcade, The Chemical, The Roberts, The Millenium Center, The Alverne, and the Lacassian Lofts in Downtown West. Despite this huge inventory in the pipeline, I still agree with just about everyone here that new BPV condos would be differentiated and desirable enough to sell/lease like hotcakes.

As for commercial/office space, I'm not sure I agree that "inventory is shrinking all over the region." Maybe in some sub-markets, but Downtown has a ton of inventory and is about to get a whole lot more with AT&T's lease coming up. Even if a company like Rawlings, Post, Scottrade, Isle of Capri, or Arch Coal came Downtown I would think they could find adequate space without requiring new construction. In addition to the soon to be abandoned AT&T is the soon to be partially abandoned Laclede Building, and I also think there is plenty of space available in Met Square, 600 Washington. Also, while there's no spec right now, Centene Plaza did just scoop up a lot of the premier tenants willing to pay the highest prices in the region for premium, sparkling new office space.

So, if Cordish/Cardinals are waiting to develop office/commercial they will either be waiting for a very long time, will have to find a white knight tenant like Centene who wants a marquee/vanity project, or will have to cannibalize the downtown market. Considering these options and their likelihood, I'd rather they focus on residential, hotel, restaurants, and retail instead of cannibalizing DT or looking and waiting for a silver bullet.

New, sleek, glass towers are needed to counter historic buildings like the Arcade and Chemical. Not everyone wants to live in a 130 year old office building as much as I do. Also, BPV should be able to land an office tenant, even in this market, because it's such a unique opportunity. I read that Apex Oil was denied construction in their previously proposed site. Can someone confirm that this is true? If so, maybe BPV can lure them down there. If all the currently proposed towers in Clayton were instead going to BPV - The Crossing, Montgomery tower, Brown Shoe, Apex, Centene Phase II - then BPV would already have every phase figured out and with definite groundbreaking. Imagine if every one of those was under construction Downtown within a year or two!

I believe a condo tower at BPV would attract an entirely different category of resident than any of the other rental or condo options downtown or anywhere else in the city. There are 3 million people per year comfortable with experiencing life around the Ballpark, many of whom would never venture or live in the other parts of the city. If just of handful were eccentric and filthy rich, a tower would sell-out quickly. An uber-rich guy from Memphis who attends 10 Cardinal games per year might be in the market for a brand new condo with a view of the ballpark. Or how about some other high rollers, such as current ballplayers who could walk across the street to go to work. Or Nelly. And if the price was not ultra-high and the condos were a little smaller, the reasonably well-off retired baby-boomers would be excited to live in those certified safe environs.

^

As an example, my mother, a baby boomer, frequently says she'd move to BPV if they'd ever just build it. Is she serious? Somewhat, even though I don't think that will be in the cards for my parents.

But they are boomers that left the city for the far west suburbs and their better schools and safer living in the 80s. They're not opposed to moving back to the city sometime in the next 10 years (the wait being for reasons that have nothing to do with city vs. suburb), which is good in and of itself.

Anyways, back to your point, Ballpark Village has the potential to draw semi-wealthy to wealthy folks over the age of 40. Folks that are happy with their lifestyle out in the suburbs, but they love St. Louis in maybe a less hands-on way than we do, and of course they love the Cardinals.

BPV would have a different allure than re-purposed loft living. It would and will be a great draw for a different demographic downtown.

^ Juan,

Would I want residential/condo/hotel rooms along Clark facing the stadium along with mid rise residential infill in Cupples, yes. Do I want a Target Express on one of the corners, it would be my second choice behind Railway Exchange building. Do I want some glass office towers, yes. I also think it would be great to see Montsano move its corporate office to BPV and turn over their current offices to Dansforth as part of an expanded plant science park (Cortex being the Life Science park).

But as far as a signature tower for downtown. My preference first and foremost is McKee's Northside rendering showing a Gateway Mall bookend 40 plus story tower. Would love to Wells Fargo Securities anchor it with a Wells Fargo Bank back office/IT relocation from the West Coast to fill in some of the left over space on the Jefferson Street Campus. Of course, I'm also including a major Wells Fargo donation to the Arch Grounds Westward museum/new west entrance and along with added donation for improving the west end of the Gateway mall itself in this dream.

That would be tubular, dredger.

Again, I think a great alternative major tenant for BPV is a college campus like STLCOP or SLU Law's size at least. Particularly if it's a campus that includes freshman courses because freshmen are usually required to live on campus, and if you put the student housing on top of the 15 floors of classrooms, then you have a 24 hour tower with lots of people in it. At least put the housing next door to it anyway. It's alright to me to have a few 5-15 story buildings at BPV. That's probably how most of it will be anyway.

I think it would be great if a project like City Walk or the Opus Tower were to go up at BPV, too. Imagine a collection like this:

-Something similar to Opus Tower crossed with City Walk

-SLU Law-sized campus with additional floors of student housing

-Boutique hotel

-Apex Oil and Brown Shoe in a single tower together

-The Crossing...in Ballpark Village

All anchored by major retail like City Target and with entertainment like Ripley's Believe it or Not!

^ I don't think the approach should be exclusive, hi end condo towers with rents upward of $2,000. I think St. Louis would benefit from BPV being a true TOD with market rate apartments, even studios in the $600-700 range. I've said it before that downtown is a little on the expensive side. I know plenty of young people, including the much coveted recent college grads, that simply cant afford over $1,000 for a one bedroom. So they end up getting a two bedroom apartment for $600 somewhere in St. Louis County, far away from the action. They would rather be downtown, but they feel squeezed out. It's like St. Louis has this phobia that if we build new construction in the urban core it has to demand rents upward of $1,500 or it will be doomed to being the slums. I was hoping some of these TOD plans would include apartments in $600-$800 range, not exactly low income/subsidized apartments, but affordable enough for a young single school teacher or social worker. I think that's a balance many cities find hard to juggle, the city has become increasingly rich and poor.

wabash wrote:I'm as outraged, horrified, and disappointed in the execution of BPV as anyone, but....

The sanctimonious attitudes in this thread are nauseating. Are you one of many who fancy themselves as experts in commercial real estate development despite managing to ignore the multitude of factors that played into delaying BPV and also changing the overall vision? It appears you are.

Tell me.

Why are you "outraged"?

Why are you "horrified"?

Why are you "disappointed"?

Putting aside the ridiculous notion of you being "outraged" and "horrified" over something like this, I'd love to hear a solid argument as to how you could have pulled this project off without anyone experiencing any of the melodramatic emotions you seem to be suffering from. Let's hear it.

Hey Chaz, go ***** yourself. Did you join this forum just to talk sh*t on Wabash? Everyone here and in real life is disappointed by BPV. It's a fact. BPV is weak. You're being...melodramatic.

BPV will eventually be really cool. For now, though, it is just a few gimmicky bars and a Hall of Fame most people will only ever go to once every few years, if that. I understand this first phase is kinda neat and everything, but until they announce a specific date to break ground on phase II, it will continue to be a disappointment. If, after this is finished, they quickly announce a high-rise apartment tower or some kind of hotel, then everyone's attitude about BPV will change.

OK, chill with the trolling and attacks. Informed, productive talk, please.

Chaz was being a jabroni so I had to. Anyways, BPV phase I is a boner killer...BUT...Future phases are going to be really sick! It's just making everyone nervous as to when that's actually going to be.

Perhaps, given the general momentum happening downtown, the respectability and deep pockets of the Cardinals, the phenomenal location of this property, and the ambitious proposals that were carted out my expectations were too high. It may come off a bit sanctimonious, but I'm not trying to be bombastic or insincere.

The credit crisis/recession wasn't foreseen by very many people, Cordish, the Cardinals, and myself among them. But they have so consistently over-promised and under-delivered on executing any of the visions they've rolled out over the years. Let's not forget that the original renderings/proposal were used to justify tax subsidies and tax breaks for the construction of Busch III. There were guarantees made on timelines for investment and construction which have been so consistently pushed back and ignored that they are now all but forgotten.

Cordish has been far too quick to try and build buzz and hype before doing the grunt work of signing tenants and securing financing. They had a opportunity to work something out with Centene, who at least for a time was on board with the project, but they failed to execute on that opportunity. Stifel also expressed interest, but Cordish failed to work something out with them as well. That's two great, growing, dynamic companies that they failed to do business with.

I think the initial concept was something of a bait and switch with tax payers, that the current iteration is an uninspired, pre-packaged bar mall in a parking lot, and that in between are a host of over-promises, failed executions, and consistently down sized and uninspired visions. But yes, I'm definitely outraged (mostly by the bait and switch), horrified (mostly by the vast parking lot and gimmicky, uninspired nature of what is being built), and disappointed (I want the best for St. Louis, and an empty gravel lot for 7 years and four bars and a surface lot doesn't cut it).

Am I an expert on commercial real estate? No. Do I think they've managed this project professionally, respectably, thoughtfully, creatively, and been good corporate citizens? No.

wabash, I agree with everything you just said

yep. eloquently stated, wabash.