I'm not sure how serious the Centene discussions were a few years back, but DeWitt's comments made it seem that they really aren't pursuing something similar at the moment. Not sure why he wouldn't comment that the site remains a terrific location for corporate HQ seeking a new tower rather than they have to wait for better absorption of the existing vacancies.... that will take a long, long time. Anyway, I was hopeful that Phase II would be announced with mixed-use this year, perhaps even in Spring, but now I'm not.
One thing you have to consider is the context of his speaking engagement. I think it talking in terms of market, what's happening and so forth for St. Louis and specifically downtown office market. You can easily plug in McKee and his proposed gateway mall bookend tower on 22nd street in the words.
On the same note, I see Ballpark Live as a separate when it comes to financing a phase II residential/hotel/mix use along Clark. The simple fact, DeWitt, Cordish, and any bankers are looking for each of their own cut on further development. So it becomes a numbers game, all three have to agree what they think the market will provide and what will they get based on projected occupancy because I doubt DeWitt or Cordish have any intention of speculating their own money. That is why KC will get a residential tower because Cordish gets to speculate on KC dime for a good chunk of the capital involved. They will announce a phase II residential tower when all three are confident that the next phase can stand on its own revenues not what Ballpark Live returns. Ballpark Live margin/profits if it is there is already spoken for.
On the same note, I see Ballpark Live as a separate when it comes to financing a phase II residential/hotel/mix use along Clark. The simple fact, DeWitt, Cordish, and any bankers are looking for each of their own cut on further development. So it becomes a numbers game, all three have to agree what they think the market will provide and what will they get based on projected occupancy because I doubt DeWitt or Cordish have any intention of speculating their own money. That is why KC will get a residential tower because Cordish gets to speculate on KC dime for a good chunk of the capital involved. They will announce a phase II residential tower when all three are confident that the next phase can stand on its own revenues not what Ballpark Live returns. Ballpark Live margin/profits if it is there is already spoken for.
Am I wrong to actually feel good about the Cardinals patience? I know it'd be great to see them be super proactive and build some residential and what not.
But the Cardinals aren't going anywhere. And they know how much that land can be worth to them.
Other development proposals that fall through often see the developer pull out all together and it again becomes an empty lot without plans.
Not so with the Cardinals. I know some people fear that they'll just settle for parking forever, but I just don't think so. It may not be as quickly as we want to, but they'll do it.
But the Cardinals aren't going anywhere. And they know how much that land can be worth to them.
Other development proposals that fall through often see the developer pull out all together and it again becomes an empty lot without plans.
Not so with the Cardinals. I know some people fear that they'll just settle for parking forever, but I just don't think so. It may not be as quickly as we want to, but they'll do it.
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Where are allllllll the offices running the day-to-day, behind the scenes operations of the Cardinals? They're not in the stadium, are they? Why can't they occupy part of a tower? Why doesn't BPV aggressively pursue something like CORTEX, but consolidated into a single tower instead of lots of small buildings?
DeWitt is seriously developing this site like an idiot. Harvard MBA or not, why would the main focus be commercial? Downtown hasn't been a "strong" commercial market for the better part of 50 years, but it has seen strong residential and convention growth for the past 10. I would be trying to build 3 residential towers and a marquee hotel tower, not a "slim" residential tower a hotel and wait 20 years for enough office demand to fill new towers. I guess when you get public subsidies in the millions you are not required to think.
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Goat, I agree it doesn't make sense. I would build 3 residential, 1 commercial, 1 hotel. Residential market is strong while the commercial market is weak and will take a while to turn the corner.
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Why not make BPV all residential and not build any office buildings? BPV can and may be better off as just a big residential project and would probably be the best choice for the land and downtown.
Actually, I believe they ARE all pretty much at the stadium.Gateway City wrote:Where are allllllll the offices running the day-to-day, behind the scenes operations of the Cardinals? They're not in the stadium, are they? Why can't they occupy part of a tower? Why doesn't BPV aggressively pursue something like CORTEX, but consolidated into a single tower instead of lots of small buildings?
Now, Bill DeWitt, Jr. (The III's father, and majority owner and chairman of the club) is based out of Cincinnati, I believe. But that's his home and his business stuff. Cardinals operations are at Busch.
I would very much support a mix across the board of Entertainment that now is in place (Ballpark Live), residential (a signature condo/hotel tower and apartments) as well as office with signature tenant - like Montsano. But first and foremost, like everyone has noted, the market is residential and will be for a while. I think it is a big mistake to wait for an office market just as much as I think it would be a mistake of going all residential. Just go across the street from Busch and look how well the Cupples warehouses that were developed have done by having a mix. Without the mix a couple more Cupples Warehouses might have had a very different fate.
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I think the hotel that does end up here would do well being like Lumiere, a casino. Throw that it with a residential tower and just wait a bit for the office tower. They should be able to lure a large company like Monsanto down there if they really cared.
Missouri won't be approving nor will St. Louis be getting another casino. Just not going to happen. The casino market looks maxed out.
I would guess that he wants to push for office space because that's where the money is. Corporate sponsorship, bigger pockets, etc. He may not be interested in managing a residential tower with hundreds of tenants while an office tower may only have a few and a bit more permanency.
I would guess that he wants to push for office space because that's where the money is. Corporate sponsorship, bigger pockets, etc. He may not be interested in managing a residential tower with hundreds of tenants while an office tower may only have a few and a bit more permanency.
Are you talking about the Four Seasons or the Hotel Lumiere? I don't think downtown could support another four star hotel right now. Especially with the upscale boutique Magnolia Hotel going into the old Mayfair.Gateway City wrote:I think the hotel that does end up here would do well being like Lumiere, a casino.
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"...........When" the downtown market improvesmjbais1489 wrote:....................."if the downtown market improves"
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Gateway City: I highly doubt MLB would want a casino built next to one of their marquee stadiums (FYI which has their corporate offices in the NW corner of the stadium). Still, that's true outside-the-box thinking...
All: Commercial real estate here is going to be the primary build-out, not residential. This has to do with how companies lease buildings, the costs of these leases, the desires to put their employees in interesting places, and the branding opportunities of PBV buildings to national audiences. Plus, Downtown is primarily the Central Business District of the STL Metro Area and should be furthered as such, not converted to being primarily residential.
This cannot and will not be a majority residential build-out. If residential proximate to Busch III was the primary demand pull, then for God’s sake, that demand would have led to Cupples 7 being developed. Instead, it was torn down. I see BPV getting one residential tower, but not a residential tower community in the heart of Downtown at Busch III.
Also, to back up what jstriebel stated earlier, I’m kind of glad DeWitt, et.al. have proceeded prudently, rather than just building “something” in the hope “someone” will arrive. Still, I’m impatient with their less-than-glacial pace in developing this site. They want to play developer, they have to develop.
All: Commercial real estate here is going to be the primary build-out, not residential. This has to do with how companies lease buildings, the costs of these leases, the desires to put their employees in interesting places, and the branding opportunities of PBV buildings to national audiences. Plus, Downtown is primarily the Central Business District of the STL Metro Area and should be furthered as such, not converted to being primarily residential.
This cannot and will not be a majority residential build-out. If residential proximate to Busch III was the primary demand pull, then for God’s sake, that demand would have led to Cupples 7 being developed. Instead, it was torn down. I see BPV getting one residential tower, but not a residential tower community in the heart of Downtown at Busch III.
Also, to back up what jstriebel stated earlier, I’m kind of glad DeWitt, et.al. have proceeded prudently, rather than just building “something” in the hope “someone” will arrive. Still, I’m impatient with their less-than-glacial pace in developing this site. They want to play developer, they have to develop.
Plus isn't the Missouri law written so that the boat-in-a-moat casino gaming areas have to be like within 1000 feet of the major rivers?gone corporate wrote:Gateway City: I highly doubt MLB would want a casino built next to one of their marquee stadiums (FYI which has their corporate offices in the NW corner of the stadium). Still, that's true outside-the-box thinking...
I don't think comparing the BPV residential opportunity to Cupples is valid. BPV potential is unique to all other downtown residential venues. If done the way old renderings and marketing attempts hinted, these will provide brand new, high end, high rise facilities providing real time game views of Cardinal action. There is a market there that goes beyond the standard residential market that is more affected by a fickle economy. Cupples doesn't promise anything that BPV will from a residential standpoint except (inferior) proximity to the stadium. A closer gauge would be the empty Roberts Tower (brand new, high rise, high end, close to Busch), but again, no ability to view games.
Until a residential project is announced, no one really knows what the market or demand is. We know for a fact that corporate/commercial is already 0-1 with Centene (is downtown really THE CBD for the Metro or just A business district for the metro? Unfortunately the patterns and choices of our local corporations would certainly challenge the former). Hopefully the current entertainment/commercial component blazes a trail for growth. Residential hasn't even gotten an at bat. I think everyone agrees a balance of residential and commercial is a formula for the urban health of the BPV community, but let's not dictate what it can/can't be until we see what it can do. With that in mind, I agree, we've already waited too long to now start making brash decisions.
Until a residential project is announced, no one really knows what the market or demand is. We know for a fact that corporate/commercial is already 0-1 with Centene (is downtown really THE CBD for the Metro or just A business district for the metro? Unfortunately the patterns and choices of our local corporations would certainly challenge the former). Hopefully the current entertainment/commercial component blazes a trail for growth. Residential hasn't even gotten an at bat. I think everyone agrees a balance of residential and commercial is a formula for the urban health of the BPV community, but let's not dictate what it can/can't be until we see what it can do. With that in mind, I agree, we've already waited too long to now start making brash decisions.
^ I would say 0-2 in corporate relocations. Stifel Nichols along with a law firm were to make a move into BPV and believe a rendering of the office tower was floated.
A casino has to touch the river by law so it's not even possible in BPV.
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Touching the river like Lumiere?innov8ion wrote:A casino has to touch the river by law so it's not even possible in BPV.
Pretty sure it does touch water or at least in some creative fashion. That is a Missouri law, right? I could be wrong.ricke002 wrote:Touching the river like Lumiere?innov8ion wrote:A casino has to touch the river by law so it's not even possible in BPV.
In any case, it's far closer to the river than BPV.
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^ I think they relaxed the water requirement over the years -- perhaps now it is a distance from a river. I doubt [edit: BPV] meets whatever the rule is nowadays, but again there are no more licenses to be had in Missouri under the constitutional change passed by voters. An existing casino would have to close elsewhere and I doubt that will happen any time soon.
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^Lumiere touches the water in a weird way.... water is pumped from the river into a man made moat in which the casino floor it self floats on. It is built in a way so that you don't even know you are on water. I think the whole water, moat, river thing is just dumb. To many old farts making dumb rules. I don't gamble, but I don't have issues for people that want to do so. And that is correct there are no more licenses, and I am curious to see how the new owners of Lumiere will do, and if they will continue the long term image of developing more around the current casino, though that would be for another thread.
I couldn't find it, but I thought the rules was 1000 feet from the navigation channel edge.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think they relaxed the water requirement over the years -- perhaps now it is a distance from a river. I doubt [edit: BPV] meets whatever the rule is nowadays, but again there are no more licenses to be had in Missouri under the constitutional change passed by voters. An existing casino would have to close elsewhere and I doubt that will happen any time soon.
Can anyone clarify what sort of leverage the city has with development at Ballpark Village? Does the construction being done right now remove the ability to assess penalties in the future if future development is slow in coming? Is there any stick to compel development, or have those all been traded away by now?
Just curious where things stand on what obligations Ballpark Village/Cordish/the Cardinals have.
Just curious where things stand on what obligations Ballpark Village/Cordish/the Cardinals have.