.... and that is just since this "new" thread began in 2011. Surely there is another thousand from prior ones.
It is slow - but it could always be worse -
http://www.kansascity.com/2014/01/20/47 ... s-now.html
KC is going to shell out 14 million this year to make up for shortfalls at the P&L - this is of course in addition to the incentives that the city gave to Cordish up front - the city was suppose to pick up the shortfall on anything that sales taxes did not cover - They have already paid out over 30 million
At this rate the city would have been better off developing it themselves and self financing. I am sure at some point the city will have play hardball with Cordish - its just too much money - and its not like sales taxes are going to get all that much better in coming years
I wonder what the populace in KC thinks - Here there would blood being spilt in city hall and in the media - I don't get that sense of outrage in KC
Thank Darlene Green who refused to do a similar agreement with Cordish - I delayed everything for years - but we can not afford to bleed that kind of cash, neither can KC.
http://www.kansascity.com/2014/01/20/47 ... s-now.html
KC is going to shell out 14 million this year to make up for shortfalls at the P&L - this is of course in addition to the incentives that the city gave to Cordish up front - the city was suppose to pick up the shortfall on anything that sales taxes did not cover - They have already paid out over 30 million
At this rate the city would have been better off developing it themselves and self financing. I am sure at some point the city will have play hardball with Cordish - its just too much money - and its not like sales taxes are going to get all that much better in coming years
I wonder what the populace in KC thinks - Here there would blood being spilt in city hall and in the media - I don't get that sense of outrage in KC
Thank Darlene Green who refused to do a similar agreement with Cordish - I delayed everything for years - but we can not afford to bleed that kind of cash, neither can KC.
I didn't follow much when the new stadium was built but why is it Cordish who gets to develop BPV?
- 8,155
^ Cordish was selected by the Cardinals as their development partner.
^^ yes, very good that we are not on the hook for BPV, but a query: how much do we pay out per year on EdJonesDome? I think its around $15 million but not confident about that.
^^ yes, very good that we are not on the hook for BPV, but a query: how much do we pay out per year on EdJonesDome? I think its around $15 million but not confident about that.
Not sure on the amount for the EJD - but it is partly paid by the City. County and State - but- it was a given up front that they would pay that, no one was under the impression that the complex would be self sustaining KC pays a similar premium (smaller) every year to support Bartle Hall, it is the expense of running a convention center/sports venueroger wyoming II wrote:^ Cordish was selected by the Cardinals as their development partner.
^^ yes, very good that we are not on the hook for BPV, but a query: how much do we pay out per year on EdJonesDome? I think its around $15 million but not confident about that.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression the amount the city (as well as the county and state) are paying on the Dome is just paying off the debt due on it. The unfortunate part there isn't the price, it's the fact that it's a building that needs replaced (or renovated) already.beer city wrote:Not sure on the amount for the EJD - but it is partly paid by the City. County and State - but- it was a given up front that they would pay that, no one was under the impression that the complex would be self sustaining KC pays a similar premium (smaller) every year to support Bartle Hall, it is the expense of running a convention center/sports venueroger wyoming II wrote:^ Cordish was selected by the Cardinals as their development partner.
^^ yes, very good that we are not on the hook for BPV, but a query: how much do we pay out per year on EdJonesDome? I think its around $15 million but not confident about that.
I suppose there might be another fund that goes towards the maintenance, but that's the nature of a publicly owned building.
- 2,929
Roger: Remember that the Ed Jones Dome is owned by a division of the City, not the team, whereas Busch III is owned by the Cardinals organization. We should keep this in mind as we think of a potential new Rams stadium, too, that the City is the primary owner of the current stadium.
Focus: We are all frustrated with how long this has taken to be developed. We all want a mix of offices with a residential tower, and we'll likely see this plus a hotel. We all wish this was done already.
This Chiz guy who wrote in earlier? He's got a big point. We're not all deep into the world of real estate development. Some of us are, but most of us aren't. There's a lot that we don't know, and there's a lot that we can and cannot do. While maybe starting off on this forum a bit hostile, his base point must be recognized by us all.
I've maintained that the Cardinals wanted to play developer and have to live with the consequences. I also am glad that they're progressing prudently as opposed to just building a whole lot of stuff that'll not get bought for years, and in the process lose money and have the team suffer. I'm very pissed that this has taken so long (wanted it done in 2009 at the All Star Game), but I cannot just stay angry on this. They're doing what they're doing, and we've got to live with it.
Until then, keep the pressure up on the Cardinals. Write them letters, real letters, stating that you want this done. Nothing like getting them face-to-face with their upset customers wanting to give them a piece of their mind. Reach out, be proactive, get things done besides just writing amongst us here.
I still believe that there'll be a residential condo tower on the SE corner, a hotel on the SW corner, and three office towers build along Walnut, likely to be built out in this order. Until then, let's just let them finish this first phase, make some profits off it, and then turn these profits around into new construction. Build, cash in, repeat.
Addendum:
And holy moley, I'm glad we're not KC with their eight-figure P&L annual payments.
Focus: We are all frustrated with how long this has taken to be developed. We all want a mix of offices with a residential tower, and we'll likely see this plus a hotel. We all wish this was done already.
This Chiz guy who wrote in earlier? He's got a big point. We're not all deep into the world of real estate development. Some of us are, but most of us aren't. There's a lot that we don't know, and there's a lot that we can and cannot do. While maybe starting off on this forum a bit hostile, his base point must be recognized by us all.
I've maintained that the Cardinals wanted to play developer and have to live with the consequences. I also am glad that they're progressing prudently as opposed to just building a whole lot of stuff that'll not get bought for years, and in the process lose money and have the team suffer. I'm very pissed that this has taken so long (wanted it done in 2009 at the All Star Game), but I cannot just stay angry on this. They're doing what they're doing, and we've got to live with it.
Until then, keep the pressure up on the Cardinals. Write them letters, real letters, stating that you want this done. Nothing like getting them face-to-face with their upset customers wanting to give them a piece of their mind. Reach out, be proactive, get things done besides just writing amongst us here.
I still believe that there'll be a residential condo tower on the SE corner, a hotel on the SW corner, and three office towers build along Walnut, likely to be built out in this order. Until then, let's just let them finish this first phase, make some profits off it, and then turn these profits around into new construction. Build, cash in, repeat.
Addendum:
I'd think that most of the money for any build-out would come from real estate investment trusts that are mostly based outside of STL rather than just being built from a local company's balance sheet profits just so it can move next to Busch III. Still, perhaps this says less about the nature of how STL companies spend their monies than on the macro health of the STL economy.arch city wrote:Currently, there are NO major speculative office developments planned in all of metro St. Louis. How hideous is that? Is St. Louis that conservative?
And holy moley, I'm glad we're not KC with their eight-figure P&L annual payments.
- 8,155
I don't think the demand for downtown living can be questioned -- its pretty much a proven commodity at this point -- but the question of how an initial BPV residential tower would stack up against other parts of downtown in terms of attractiveness is a good one. On the one hand, BPV is much less dense than across the other side of Market, but then again that may appeal to some and .400 seems to be doing fine already. Anyway, getting the GenAm building back in action, as it appears is happening, and additional new establishments like Flying Saucer will continue to make the general area more diverse and more of a "neighborhood" than present.blzhrpmd2 wrote: But again, if that group wanted to move into the city for a change of pace living experience, I would think that other options in the city would be more ideal. Perhaps I'm guilty (as the Cardinals'/Cordish brass may be) of underestimating the power of proximity to the Birds on the Bat.
wabash's comments were sincere and excellent - on point. Those of us who are critical of BPV just want downtown St. Louis to be world-class.
It seems like most of larger regional corporations just don't get it - including the Cardinals/Cordish. They are building a Schnucks at BPV - at least that is what the exterior looks like. With the exception of one alderman, City Hall is lethargic when it comes to this project. Where are the public forums regarding BPV? When was the last time the Cardinals/Cordish updated the city on future phases? Maybe there some anxiety and impatience, but this LONG delay to get projects of substance at BPV has been going on for too long.
While it is great to see the first phase finally nearing completion with new jobs, as I see it, the Cardinals/Cordish have been foot-dragging. As long as St. Louis is not putting heat on them to stage-progress phases - development there is going to be like molasses.
Also, how could BPV lose out on something like this? GoodSports to build $23 million Chesterfield hotel, fieldhouse? WTH? The one proposed for Charlotte will be downtown.
![]()
It seems like most of larger regional corporations just don't get it - including the Cardinals/Cordish. They are building a Schnucks at BPV - at least that is what the exterior looks like. With the exception of one alderman, City Hall is lethargic when it comes to this project. Where are the public forums regarding BPV? When was the last time the Cardinals/Cordish updated the city on future phases? Maybe there some anxiety and impatience, but this LONG delay to get projects of substance at BPV has been going on for too long.
While it is great to see the first phase finally nearing completion with new jobs, as I see it, the Cardinals/Cordish have been foot-dragging. As long as St. Louis is not putting heat on them to stage-progress phases - development there is going to be like molasses.
Also, how could BPV lose out on something like this? GoodSports to build $23 million Chesterfield hotel, fieldhouse? WTH? The one proposed for Charlotte will be downtown.
Yes, I agree with 95% of what you said Arch City.
I only have one disagreement, I actually find the first phase rather attractive. Maybe I'm a sucker, but there is something about red brick and black cast iron that screams St. Louis. I love the traditional architecture, but I do think it would look much better with some modern hi rises around it.
![]()
![]()
I only have one disagreement, I actually find the first phase rather attractive. Maybe I'm a sucker, but there is something about red brick and black cast iron that screams St. Louis. I love the traditional architecture, but I do think it would look much better with some modern hi rises around it.
I think the mood in KC regarding P&L depends on who you ask. Many older people who have no use for bull riding bars or Vegas-style nightclubs think the place is a giant boondoggle. Younger people who go to those types of places are happy it was built.
The difference between the two cities, however, is that downtown KC was completely dead prior to P&L being built. There was no equivalent to STL's Washington Avenue, the baseball and football stadiums are 10 miles away, and the nightlife was all in the Westport and Plaza areas. Power and Light made downtown KC relevant again to many people, and it is now a major draw for young people living there.
The success of the Sprint Center helps soften the blow of $14m-$21m (projected) bond payments, but I would like to know why the parties have been unable to lease up much of the commercial space in the district. There are big spaces that have been available since construction completed that have never been filled.
Downtown St. Louis already has a nightlife, so I think there is some risk BPV will take some business from neighboring areas. But with all the free concerts and other programming that Cordish will be hosting at BPV throughout the year, I think St. Louis will have all kinds of people (particularly deep countians) going downtown who wouldn't be there otherwise. (Think summer country concerts when the Cardinals are on the road.)
The difference between the two cities, however, is that downtown KC was completely dead prior to P&L being built. There was no equivalent to STL's Washington Avenue, the baseball and football stadiums are 10 miles away, and the nightlife was all in the Westport and Plaza areas. Power and Light made downtown KC relevant again to many people, and it is now a major draw for young people living there.
The success of the Sprint Center helps soften the blow of $14m-$21m (projected) bond payments, but I would like to know why the parties have been unable to lease up much of the commercial space in the district. There are big spaces that have been available since construction completed that have never been filled.
Downtown St. Louis already has a nightlife, so I think there is some risk BPV will take some business from neighboring areas. But with all the free concerts and other programming that Cordish will be hosting at BPV throughout the year, I think St. Louis will have all kinds of people (particularly deep countians) going downtown who wouldn't be there otherwise. (Think summer country concerts when the Cardinals are on the road.)
- 933
When I was in K.C. I was kinda curious about why the stadiums aren't Downtown. That's kind if strange. Why is that? They really shot themselves in the foot there.
I don't think it's necessarily that strange. I think it's what we expect in St. Louis because it's what we've always had for the most part (the old Arena not withstanding). But a lot of cities don't have that, I think.
I'm not an expert. I'm guessing it's pretty split. But I think we're a rare example of having ALL three major venues downtown.
I'm not an expert. I'm guessing it's pretty split. But I think we're a rare example of having ALL three major venues downtown.
Arch City - where is that picture from? And what makes you think it's a Schnucks?
Also, I think it's a stretch saying the Charlotte GoodSports is in Downtown Charlotte. Close, but not downtown. With that said, I'd imagine GoodSports would have considered a location in the city if it picked up 25 percent of all development costs like Charlotte did.
TIA,
Kevin
Also, I think it's a stretch saying the Charlotte GoodSports is in Downtown Charlotte. Close, but not downtown. With that said, I'd imagine GoodSports would have considered a location in the city if it picked up 25 percent of all development costs like Charlotte did.
TIA,
Kevin
- 641
I love when some one in the industry comes on here to add some facts to the discussion. Thanks Kevin.
I, too, kind of like the way the firs phase is turning out. I do wish that they would have put in windows in the white spaces on the east and west sides.
From what little I've read about that Sports Hotel concept, I believe that part of their "gig" is catering to youth sports tournaments. I've been out of that game for almost 15 years but during my competitive sports swansong in the late 90s Chesterfield was a burgeoning hotbed for youth soccer, baseball, and hockey facilities and has probably only grown. I'm remembering many an out of town trip for tournaments and the concept is a good one for families looking to simplify lodging during long weekends with a gaggle of teenagers. The multiple corporate locations in that area make it ideal for business travelers as well.
While always in favor of downtown as a candidate for development, I think Chesterfield is probably a good landing spot for such an endeavor. What that says about our region is open to debate. Would love to see an awesome W style hotel in this spot that could play up the Cardinals' proximity in a more subtle, subdued fashion.
While always in favor of downtown as a candidate for development, I think Chesterfield is probably a good landing spot for such an endeavor. What that says about our region is open to debate. Would love to see an awesome W style hotel in this spot that could play up the Cardinals' proximity in a more subtle, subdued fashion.
- 8,155
^ While I don't think it would ever take over Chesterfield in terms of youth sports, I've thought that utilizing part of the immense space behind Union Station (overflow parking areas, etc. even going beyond the I-64 infrastructure) for sports fields and tournaments could be rather cool and good use of difficult space. Have buy in from all the pro sports teams and that could be pretty amazing. Less costly would be a cool skate park/BMX park/ X-games area, but I'd like to see that more down by the north riverfront.blzhrpmd2 wrote:From what little I've read about that Sports Hotel concept, I believe that part of their "gig" is catering to youth sports tournaments. I've been out of that game for almost 15 years but during my competitive sports swansong in the late 90s Chesterfield was a burgeoning hotbed for youth soccer, baseball, and hockey facilities and has probably only grown. I'm remembering many an out of town trip for tournaments and the concept is a good one for families looking to simplify lodging during long weekends with a gaggle of teenagers. The multiple corporate locations in that area make it ideal for business travelers as well.
While always in favor of downtown as a candidate for development, I think Chesterfield is probably a good landing spot for such an endeavor. What that says about our region is open to debate. Would love to see an awesome W style hotel in this spot that could play up the Cardinals' proximity in a more subtle, subdued fashion.
For hotel at BPV, a W style would be good at some point, but I also think they should just go with their brand and partner on a Cards-theme small boutique to start.
As far as BPV hotel, I vision a new sleek Westin tower on the location that Gone Corporate noted. With the current Westin across the street being redeveloped or rebranded, maybe even residential but not sure how the cost factor works on the mechanical/HVAC end of going from hotel rooms to residential. I think GC is spot on what will go where or at least what should go where in time.
As far as fact and speculations. Would love Cordish/DeWitt gave some facts but understand giving out details of your development agreement is not good business so would at least a current vision on what they want and what they think it will take to get there. Most of us can certainly understand and comprehend where the office market is and the hard reality that downtown rates won't support construction of new speculative class A office space. That is only going to happen if a company wants to pay the difference to make it happen, think Centene.
But, the residential market and possibilities seem as good as here for new construction as anywhere in the region. What I'm curious about from those on thread involved in real estate, how many residential have to be built, how many sold and what is the selling point to make a residential tower happen at BPV?
As far as fact and speculations. Would love Cordish/DeWitt gave some facts but understand giving out details of your development agreement is not good business so would at least a current vision on what they want and what they think it will take to get there. Most of us can certainly understand and comprehend where the office market is and the hard reality that downtown rates won't support construction of new speculative class A office space. That is only going to happen if a company wants to pay the difference to make it happen, think Centene.
But, the residential market and possibilities seem as good as here for new construction as anywhere in the region. What I'm curious about from those on thread involved in real estate, how many residential have to be built, how many sold and what is the selling point to make a residential tower happen at BPV?
I respect your opinion, but to clarify, I don't think it is bad design. It's just typical and boring. The design isn't necessarily "awe-inspiring", but it is decent and functional.goat314 wrote:Yes, I agree with 95% of what you said Arch City.
I only have one disagreement, I actually find the first phase rather attractive. Maybe I'm a sucker, but there is something about red brick and black cast iron that screams St. Louis. I love the traditional architecture, but I do think it would look much better with some modern hi rises around it.
I personally think St. Louis needs more modern design - especially downtown.
I think it would be a great contrast to have the ballpark surrounded by "where old (historic) meets new (contemporary)" design. For example, Cupples Station speaks for itself. It's truly historic. It blends well with the faux-historic ballpark to the east, however, everything built at the BPV site shouldn't be traditional or faux-historic looking. Perhaps that won't be the case - and past modern/contemporary renderings actually suggest so - but you can never tell with St. Louis - especially looking at Phase I.
So hopefully when BPV is completely built out in 2050
, it won't look like they went totally retro and missed an opportunity to enhance downtown with contemporary structures.The photo came from the GoodSports website. To answer your second question - see below. You'd think BPV Phase I and Schnucks have the same architects.kbshapiro wrote:Arch City - where is that picture from? And what makes you think it's a Schnucks?
The first two renderings are of a store planned for St. Charles.
kbshapiro wrote:Also, I think it's a stretch saying the Charlotte GoodSports is in Downtown Charlotte. Close, but not downtown. With that said, I'd imagine GoodSports would have considered a location in the city if it picked up 25 percent of all development costs like Charlotte did.
Okay.....5 minutes from downtown.
For the record, North Carolina and Charlotte tend to drop big dollars like that all of the time. They go hard after economic development, which is why Charlotte's GDP, unfortunately, recently passed STL's.
The overall point suggested.... Was BPV even scouted for this facility, and if so, did the Cordish/Cardinals drop the ball......again? Such a facility would have been, I think, a great fit for BPV.
Eh, I see what you're saying, but the architecture matches the stadium perfectly, and the architecture of the stadium matches the other red brick buildings near by.
Yes, the stadium and the first phase of BPV aren't done with quite the same quality of the older buildings, but they still look nice and fit well.
Yes, the stadium and the first phase of BPV aren't done with quite the same quality of the older buildings, but they still look nice and fit well.
Ok, what am I not getting here. Why are people so mad about this hotel not being in BPV? Why would the Goodsports hotel even consider BVP? Where downtown do you see the sports fields to support this? As the article says the hotel / company is centered around traveling athletes and their families. When I played select soccer and traveled every weekend, not once did teams not chose a hotel that wasn't right next to the fields. Why would you chose a hotel that is ~30 mins any field? For the demographics they are looking for, it just doesn't work.
Now, lets look at the Chesterfield location. 5 mins from soccer / baseball / softball / lacrosse / field hockey fields, shopping, restaurants, and quick access via the highway. If I was still a traveling athlete and family, this would be a perfect situation.
Now I'm not saying we don't need a hotel downtown at BPV, but this is not the right hotel that should go there.
Now, lets look at the Chesterfield location. 5 mins from soccer / baseball / softball / lacrosse / field hockey fields, shopping, restaurants, and quick access via the highway. If I was still a traveling athlete and family, this would be a perfect situation.
Now I'm not saying we don't need a hotel downtown at BPV, but this is not the right hotel that should go there.
I agree with almost everything you've just written. To me though, the quality of Phase I doesn't seem that bad. It's just typical of St. Louis. Standard. Safe. Classic. In my opinion, Phase I is just HO-HUM. It doesn't blow you out of the water, but it isn't the worst either by far. It's just.......typical.jstriebel wrote:Eh, I see what you're saying, but the architecture matches the stadium perfectly, and the architecture of the stadium matches the other red brick buildings near by.
Yes, the stadium and the first phase of BPV aren't done with quite the same quality of the older buildings, but they still look nice and fit well.
My point was.......why must new structures at BPV match the stadium and Cupples Station in design?
It is what it is.....but it is simply my preference to see more contemporary designs - not whimsical design - but a little more daring than the routinely safe designs we've seen around St. Louis lately.