Ballpark Village

arch city · PostAug 27, 2013#8262013-08-27T21:53+00:00

Not St. Louis..................Philly

I realize this isn't downtown Philly, but Xfinity Live in Philadelphia is being built in phases on vast parking lots in Philly's stadium and arena complex. And guess what? Xfinity Live has PBR Bar and Grill......in Philadelphia! Yahoo!

Posted to demonstrate that you are not alone St. Louis. I also think BPV Phase I is looking better than Phase I of Xfinity Live.

rawest1 · PostAug 28, 2013#8272013-08-28T12:42+00:00

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... 21c0e.html

Joe Strauss wrote:When it comes to Ballpark Village, Bill DeWitt III has heard them all.

“It takes a Village to raise a child. Too bad it takes a generation to raise a Village.”

Ever since the Cardinals went public in November 2004 with plans to develop a mix of retail, residential and commercial on the footprint created by old Busch Stadium they’ve heard little except skepticism.

New Busch Stadium opened in 2006 less than six months after the Houston Astros closed down its predecessor in Game 6 of the 2005 National League championship series. The Village supposedly was to follow soon thereafter, helping to revitalize a downtown that rolled up its sidewalks at sundown on nights when the Cardinals were dark or on the road.

“I thought Ballpark Village would be a hole. Who knew a hole would represent progress?”

dweebe · PostAug 28, 2013#8282013-08-28T14:28+00:00

The one thing I have noticed is all the spaces in Carpark Village has somewhat shifted patterns around the stadium. Parking to the south of Busch has opened up somewhat.

In addition our Rams tailgating group is trying to decide if the lot might be an option for this year. If the price is reasonable (say $10/spot) we might give it a shot. Plus it would be nice to be somewhere paved.

jstriebel · PostAug 28, 2013#8292013-08-28T15:10+00:00

Joe Strauss isn't one to say anything nice, so I think that article is worth reading. He of course couldn't get by without taking a veiled shot at St. Louis for having people who would enjoy riding a mechanical bull, but that's Strauss for you.

I have to admit, this quote by BDIII is a bit concerning, though.

“It’s ready-made for future development,” says DeWitt III. “So when I hear people say, ‘It’s just parking,’ well, yeah, of course it is. We need parking to support the first phase. When future phases happen, we just replace what we lost with structured parking.”

I have no problem with the parking because why not have parking while you wait for the rest of the development. But to say the venues at BPV require parking... eh... why? And to say you're going to build more garage parking as the project expands... why?

So while I'm not bothered by the current inclusion of parking, I do admit that the Cardinals stance that parking is needed for these developments to be successful is misguided and unfortunate.

dweebe · PostAug 28, 2013#8302013-08-28T15:18+00:00

jstriebel wrote:Joe Strauss isn't one to say anything nice, so I think that article is worth reading. He of course couldn't get by without taking a veiled shot at St. Louis for having people who would enjoy riding a mechanical bull, but that's Strauss for you.

If you follow him on Twitter, the dude can't go go a day or two without a direct slam of St. Louis or at least veiled jab.

DannyJ · PostAug 28, 2013#8312013-08-28T15:31+00:00

jstriebel wrote:I have to admit, this quote by BDIII is a bit concerning, though.

“It’s ready-made for future development,” says DeWitt III. “So when I hear people say, ‘It’s just parking,’ well, yeah, of course it is. We need parking to support the first phase. When future phases happen, we just replace what we lost with structured parking.”
I have no problem with the parking because why not have parking while you wait for the rest of the development. But to say the venues at BPV require parking... eh... why? And to say you're going to build more garage parking as the project expands... why?

So while I'm not bothered by the current inclusion of parking, I do admit that the Cardinals stance that parking is needed for these developments to be successful is misguided and unfortunate.

Excellent point, jstriebel. I didn't really catch that at first when I read it.

There is absolutely no need for more permanent parking around Busch unless there is some very serious investment in commercial office space and residential in future phases. If they add hundreds or thousands of new office workers and residents in these blocks, a well-designed and well-hidden parking structure would make sense. There ought to be a parking maximum set for this area.

dweebe · PostAug 28, 2013#8322013-08-28T15:41+00:00

DannyJ wrote:
jstriebel wrote:I have to admit, this quote by BDIII is a bit concerning, though.

“It’s ready-made for future development,” says DeWitt III. “So when I hear people say, ‘It’s just parking,’ well, yeah, of course it is. We need parking to support the first phase. When future phases happen, we just replace what we lost with structured parking.”
I have no problem with the parking because why not have parking while you wait for the rest of the development. But to say the venues at BPV require parking... eh... why? And to say you're going to build more garage parking as the project expands... why?

So while I'm not bothered by the current inclusion of parking, I do admit that the Cardinals stance that parking is needed for these developments to be successful is misguided and unfortunate.

Excellent point, jstriebel. I didn't really catch that at first when I read it.

There is absolutely no need for more permanent parking around Busch unless there is some very serious investment in commercial office space and residential in future phases. If they add hundreds or thousands of new office workers and residents in these blocks, a well-designed and well-hidden parking structure would make sense. There ought to be a parking maximum set for this area.

They could tear down the Westin and build a 20 story Garage Mahal 2.0 and people would STILL complain there's not enough parking by the ballpark.

debaliviere · PostAug 28, 2013#8332013-08-28T15:49+00:00

I've grown tired of Strauss' contempt for this city and its residents.

dweebe · PostAug 28, 2013#8342013-08-28T16:18+00:00

debaliviere wrote:I've grown tired of Strauss' contempt for this city and its residents.

He REALLY doesn't like St. Louis. Or it's just a good act to his "job" is to stir up the pot.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 28, 2013#8352013-08-28T16:21+00:00

arch city wrote:Not St. Louis..................Philly

I realize this isn't downtown Philly, but Xfinity Live in Philadelphia is being built in phases on vast parking lots in Philly's stadium and arena complex. And guess what? Xfinity Live has PBR Bar and Grill......in Philadelphia! Yahoo!

Posted to demonstrate that you are not alone St. Louis. I also think BPV Phase I is looking better than Phase I of Xfinity Live.

To be fair to Philly, though, this is not in downtown. It would be more like the Rams trying to build out a Village if they were to build a new stadium in Fenton. BPV is smack dab in the middle of downtown with some of the best ready-to-build property in the country.

jstriebel · PostAug 28, 2013#8362013-08-28T16:43+00:00

dweebe wrote:
jstriebel wrote:Joe Strauss isn't one to say anything nice, so I think that article is worth reading. He of course couldn't get by without taking a veiled shot at St. Louis for having people who would enjoy riding a mechanical bull, but that's Strauss for you.
If you follow him on Twitter, the dude can't go go a day or two without a direct slam of St. Louis or at least veiled jab.

Yep. And that's a large part of the reason I no longer do. I couldn't take his trolling of all things St. Louis and/or Cardinals fans. He treats small flaws like massive issues and a handful of less than smart fans as if they represent the entire fan base. Frustrating.

dweebe · PostAug 28, 2013#8372013-08-28T16:52+00:00

jstriebel wrote:
dweebe wrote:
jstriebel wrote:Joe Strauss isn't one to say anything nice, so I think that article is worth reading. He of course couldn't get by without taking a veiled shot at St. Louis for having people who would enjoy riding a mechanical bull, but that's Strauss for you.
If you follow him on Twitter, the dude can't go go a day or two without a direct slam of St. Louis or at least veiled jab.
Yep. And that's a large part of the reason I no longer do. I couldn't take his trolling of all things St. Louis and/or Cardinals fans. He treats small flaws like massive issues and a handful of less than smart fans as if they represent the entire fan base. Frustrating.

Is his mind a few whack jobs complaining = every single man, woman and child within a 100 mile radius of the arch.

arch city · PostAug 28, 2013#8382013-08-28T17:51+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:To be fair to Philly, though, this is not in downtown. It would be more like the Rams trying to build out a Village if they were to build a new stadium in Fenton. BPV is smack dab in the middle of downtown with some of the best ready-to-build property in the country.

That's why I prefaced my comment with, "I realize this isn't downtown Philly, but...."

Also, keep in mind this isn't St. Louis' first rodeo with vast parking lots downtown in the heart of downtown.

Although I am just as frustrated too, the 60s and 70s era parking lots were eventually built upon; and I believe the Carpark Village will be built upon over time as well. The overall point was Cordish apparently likes "clean slates" where possible - particularly building on parking lots whether in Philly or St. Louis.

Source: stl250.org

gary kreie · PostAug 28, 2013#8392013-08-28T18:12+00:00

I took his photo with my phone at last night's game. I like that Ballpark Village Phase 1 is not tall enough to hide the Old Courthouse.

If I drew a line from my seat to the Southeast corner of a future high rise at Clark and Broadway, the line would line up with the right end of the Coca-Cola party room roof in this photo. (Trust me, I used Google Maps and a real ruler.)

I'd like to see one of you artistic architects (or wanna be) copy this photo to Paint, say, and sketch in what a high rise might look like behind the Coca-Cola sign, including external balconies or some other cool amenities or signage (notice I used your term, not sign) to show what it might look like. From this angle it could be as high as practical without blocking the view of either the Old Courthouse or the Arch.

rawest1 · PostAug 28, 2013#8402013-08-28T18:26+00:00

Off-topic, but I'm curious as to where people's ideas that he "REALLY doesn't like St. Louis" are coming from. None of his jabs seem particularly mean-spirited, and nowhere have I ever seen him take a few "whack jobs" and paint them as if they're representative of the entire fanbase of anything. Personally I thought the mechanical-bull comment was funny and frankly on-point, as a lifelong St. Louis (area) native and resident... have you guys ever even been to Cardinals games before?

jstriebel · PostAug 28, 2013#8412013-08-28T18:37+00:00

He does it constantly on Twitter. Constantly. He'll come up with a poor baseball decision and paint the entire "#BFIB" as if they're in favor of it.

Like this isn't a true example, but it might as well be. With Jake Westbrook's recent struggles, it wouldn't surprise me to see him tweet something like.

"Back in April #BFIB had Westbrook winning Cy Young. Crickets now."

It's that type of stuff frequently, where MAYBE he saw one or two people say something silly, and he acts like everyone is on board with it. I've never seen some one more concerned with being the smartest man in the room and certainly not to the point of creating a false narrative to make it appear that way.

He constantly berates his peers in the media. Which isn't to say the St. Louis sports media doesn't deserve some critiquing, but it's ridiculous. The man has the great Cardinals beat writer (thanks to the P-D mercifully moving Strauss on from the beat) and his own co-worker Derrick Goold blocked on Twitter for goodness sakes.

And the man simply does not miss a chance to knock the region. I don't think any of us are sitting here touting Lambert as the greatest airport in the land, but it's perfectly fine. Strauss acts like it's a dump and refers to it as "hooterville".

He may well be a perfectly nice and happy man in real life. But his digital persona is one of the most unpleasant ones I've ever come across.

arch city · PostAug 28, 2013#8422013-08-28T20:52+00:00

This Strauss guy sounds bad. Is he from St. Louis? Has been challenged on some of his critiques? Every city is worthy of critique, but if it seems there's a lack of balance then perhaps he needs to be reported to his bosses. Or listeners (and/or readers) should file enough complaints to get him removed or to at least to get him to tone it down.

In regards to the airport, I have a buddy who lives in another city and flies all across the globe for his job - going through many airports including St. Louis - and his unsolicited words to me were, "St. Louis has a nice airport". He did complain about the service at a Chili's restaurant, but otherwise he feels it is a "nice airport".

To me, that read not extravagant, but comfortable and modest, and not a dump or "Hooterville".

rawest1 · PostAug 28, 2013#8432013-08-28T20:57+00:00

It's painfully obvious from his tweest, columns, and radio show that the #BFIB refers to a very specific segment of the Cardinals fanbase. As far as I can tell, he has never once "acted like everyone is on board" with whatever he's making fun of. I challenge you to find one instance where he did that. And our airport is frankly kind of a joke, or at best colossally disappointing, when you consider our location in the country and how big our city is. He's abrasive and blunt and he rubs people the wrong way and I get it if you don't like his tone or some of his jabs. But you're saying things about him that are flat-out untrue.

I for one greatly appreciate his outside perspective and his willingness to challenge the "status quo" St. Louis sports fans perceptions on things.

PostAug 28, 2013#8442013-08-28T20:59+00:00

arch city wrote:This Strauss guy sounds bad. Is he from St. Louis? Has been challenged on some of his critiques? Every city is worthy of critique, but if it seems there's a lack of balance then perhaps he needs to be reported to his bosses. Or listeners (and/or readers) should file enough complaints to get him removed or to at least to get him to tone it down.

In regards to the airport, I have a buddy who lives in another city and flies all across the globe for his job - going through many airports including St. Louis - and his unsolicited words to me were, "St. Louis has a nice airport". He did complain about the service at a Chili's restaurant, but otherwise he feels it is a "nice airport".

To me, that read not extravagant, but comfortable and modest, and not a dump or "Hooterville".

No, I think he's from Norfolk VA but don't quote me on that.

jstriebel · PostAug 28, 2013#8452013-08-28T21:46+00:00

rawest1 wrote:It's painfully obvious from his tweest, columns, and radio show that the #BFIB refers to a very specific segment of the Cardinals fanbase. As far as I can tell, he has never once "acted like everyone is on board" with whatever he's making fun of. I challenge you to find one instance where he did that. And our airport is frankly kind of a joke, or at best colossally disappointing, when you consider our location in the country and how big our city is. He's abrasive and blunt and he rubs people the wrong way and I get it if you don't like his tone or some of his jabs. But you're saying things about him that are flat-out untrue.

I for one greatly appreciate his outside perspective and his willingness to challenge the "status quo" St. Louis sports fans perceptions on things.

I'll find examples tonight.

rawest1 · PostAug 28, 2013#8462013-08-28T21:56+00:00

Do that if you want, I'm kind of interested to see what you come up with.

Back on topic, sort of, I think Strauss's column was fairly optimistic in tone and provides a pretty good picture, at least at the 90,000 foot level, of the history of BPV.

jstriebel · PostAug 28, 2013#8472013-08-28T21:58+00:00

Agreed with you there, which is what I meant by my original statement. A man who usually finds the negative in anything local and Cardinals related, instead said optimistic things about the project. I figure maybe there's something to that.

Presbyterian · PostAug 28, 2013#8482013-08-28T23:09+00:00

rawest1 wrote:No, I think he's from Norfolk VA but don't quote me on that.

Wouldn't think of it. But I remember being in Norfolk a couple times. It was one of the few cities in Virginia to embrace the urban redevelopment fad of the 1970s. From what I saw, they seem to have demolished most of their downtown to redevelop it in a more auto-centric way. The redeveloped area did not seem to have aged well when I was there. Perhaps things have changed.

shimmy · PostAug 28, 2013#8492013-08-28T23:54+00:00

^I'm moving down to Hampton Roads in two weeks. I was talking with one of my instructors who lives in Newport News and asked him about the area and how he likes it and he put it as "having all the disadvantages of a big city without any of the advantages." I like the area alright and am looking forward to the move, but it's certainly not on the edge of the urban development curve.

Edit: Though to be fair, there have been movements in both Newport News and Hampton is developing urban shopping districts. Hampton even demolished a shopping mall and replaced it with an urban, multipurpose district. Anyways, back on topic.

threeonefour · PostAug 29, 2013#8502013-08-29T05:03+00:00

The development in Philadelphia isn't all that impressive either, but at least it looks like they aren't going to festoon the entire development with corporate sponsored signage. I still think that is one of the most ridiculous design elements of Ballpark Village Phase I, especially when the same sponsors (Ford, at&t, Coca-Cola, Mercy, etc.) already have signs plastered all over the stadium across the street. Philadelphia's faux village isn't as urban as Ballpark Village here, but it's not exactly Patriot Place in Foxborough either, which is essentially a lifestyle center surrounded by acres of parking in the no-man's suburban land between Boston and Providence.

And does this quote concern me? You're damn right it does!

“It’s ready-made for future development,” says DeTwit III. “So when I hear people say, ‘It’s just parking,’ well, yeah, of course it is. We need parking to support the first phase. When future phases happen, we just replace what we lost with structured parking.”

If you are keeping track of this development at home with your Official Carpark Village Broken Promisinator, you know that one of the details revealed about this development during the gestation period that stretched out over a decade was UNDERGROUND parking within the Ballpark Village site. I don't think anyone would bat an eye at additional structured parking within the development if it served high-density structures like condominiums or office towers. Even tall buildings with structured parking on lower levels (which would be less desirable anyway since the views wouldn't be as desirable as those that are closer to the sky) could be forgiven in my opinion. But since the 'need' for parking is the only thing that DeTwit III isn't being vague about as it pertains to future phases, you have to forgive me if I'm skeptical of just about everything that comes out of his mouth regarding this development. As I said before, he's a great baseball executive and a lousy real estate developer.

Oh, and I don't exactly appreciate the cut of Joe Strauss' jib either. And I think I make it perfectly clear that my disappointment with Ballpark Village has nothing to do with my overall opinions about St. Louis. However, Strauss seems to find something negative to say about our city and the Cardinals' fan base every chance he gets. It gets old quickly.

Ballpark Village

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