urbanSTL

To get a little further into the weeds:

These points aren't moot. Its essential we understand what we're doing here with development subsidies. Its essential we stop pretending that junk development is "downtown investment". We need to stop treating marketing/pr/cheerleading speak as if its reality.

This isn't a $100M project. $16M in permits have been issued. Perhaps that translates to $32M in actual construction. (For comparison, Mercedes Benz on Hampton w/ huge underground garage + 276 unit Cortona bldg = less than $50M combined) No way this is $100M.

This isn't a failure of TIF policy. Its not the tool, its the way the tool is being used. Region wide, yes TIF policy is bad (but its entirely regulated at the state level, not local level, so we aren't going to fix it at the local level) but in this case using a TIF is fine if the outcome is good. People manage the outcome. We pay people at SLDC (relatively well) to figure this stuff out. This is their job, and they screwed it up.

The TOD planning out there right now is fine, but at the end of the day, its suggestive, not prescriptive. There is nothing (absolutely nothing) standing in the way of the BPV being the TOD. That was the idea in 2006. The Metrolink station is immediately across the street. There are no local regulations preventing TOD, and even if there were, they could be erased by new rules enacted through the TIF. The TOD plan won't build a single residential unit, it will just suggest someone else should build residential units.

I can't emphasize this enough, the Cardinals/Cordish don't need the TOD study to do anything they can't do now. (in fact, the TOD study points out: There's too much surface parking!)

Moreover, its not at all clear that the now existing parking won't provide a reasonable rate of return to Cardinals/Cordish that prevents them from pursuing other development. There will be $800,000 in revenue from the lot each year with minimal cost and no debt, and lower property tax. In the long run, a 300 unit apartment would be more valuable, but it would be 10+ years before it started to generate an actual return.

That's the key point: SLDC / Mayor's office should have specifically prevented using the site for parking through the leverage provided by the TIF in order to get actual, positive for downtown development.

The parking lot is not a step toward "Phase II" - its now an ADDITIONAL HURDLE in place delaying step II.

Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman

goat314 wrote:I agree with a lot of what Mr. Olgivie has said, but the points he makes regarding this particular project are moot now. Unless he plans to introduce a bill next session proposing TIF reform or development standards in the city, or is interested building grassroots coalition to change certain draconian laws, i really dont see the value of his twitter rant. I can agree with Mr. Olgivie all I want on a gang of issues, but what can we actually do going forward.

By the way, I personally do not see how a $100 million investment in downtown is a failure. I would also like to know why it will take at least 5 years to see a phase II? I would also like to know if I've been misinformed about the Cardinals being directly involved with the TOD plans for the Stadium Metrolink.

There's always value in an educated discussion.

ward24 wrote: The market: Office is soft. fine. Residential is doing very well. There are unoccupied buildings downtown, but they do not have rentable residential units. Good development MAKES THE MARKET. Quality new residential, which wouldn't be online for a minimum of another year anyway, would have little competition downtown. Now, its at least 5 years away (if you're optimistic) Except, now residential construction will be adjacent to a fake cowboy bar... which probably doesn't help.

I do agree with this. I was responding to a particular comment regarding surface parking in downtown in general...and why there is inevitably going to be a lot of surface parking for quite some time.

The BPV lot is a definite exception to this rule. It's as good a space as any for new downtown residential, given its proximity to the Metrolink and the appeal to Cardinals fans. I think it would appeal to more upscale, condo-type owners, rather than rental units. I think the condo market is still very skittish, but I would be surprised if they couldn't sell condos built right next to the stadium. I'd bet there'd be a waiting list if anyone actually built them. I'm just as pissed as anyone that people haven't been able to put together a better plan for this site other than some cheap, slapped-together bar complex/billboard that's more likely to take away business from other downtown establishments than it is to contribute to any sort of sustainable neighborhood.

Really appreciate you coming on here and explaining your POV further Alderman Ogilvie. I think most of your points make sense and I know your broader point is valid.

But when it comes specifically to BPV, I guess I'm just more optimistic than you are about the future development. Maybe it's naivety. But I don't believe that lot remains a parking lot for more than a couple of years.

I think they build on it, and I think they do it relatively soon.

jstriebel wrote:Really appreciate you coming on here and explaining your POV further Alderman Ogilvie. I think most of your points make sense and I know your broader point is valid.

But when it comes specifically to BPV, I guess I'm just more optimistic than you are about the future development. Maybe it's naivety. But I don't believe that lot remains a parking lot for more than a couple of years.

I think they build on it, and I think they do it relatively soon.

I'm also optimistic, but I'm not admitting to any type of naivety regarding this project. Ballpark Village Phase 1 will be wildly successful and create a better overall gameday experience for Cardinal fans. It will generate so much income that plans for future phases will be announced and construction will likely start sooner than any of use could imagine. I'd give it a couple seasons max, maybe 2015-2016 groundbreaking.

goat314 wrote:Ballpark Village Phase 1 will be wildly successful ... It will generate so much income that plans for future phases will be announced and construction will likely start sooner than any of use could imagine....

Cordish/BPV WILL do well with the predominately suburban fan base of the Cardinals. BPV will entice their fan base to stay/spend downtown. This is not a bad thing. Problem is, when they expand in a few years, it will be more of the same type of development. I mean why should they change when their formula is 'working'? (logical conclusion)

Other than city requirements (being enforced), Cordish has zero REASON to build TOD, mixed use, urbane or anything else more suited to this marquee location. Cordish isn't bad, just a bad fit for the site.

dweebe wrote:

goat314 wrote:http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Concerns ... 36641.html

This line scares me.

The Cardinals tell News 4 the large parking lot may be temporary and say for now it’s good for the city.

That line scares me as well. And perhaps I'm too cynical, but that's why I have a very negative view of Ballpark Village. I simply don't trust Bill Dewitt anymore.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I trust him to do whatever it takes to put a great product on the field at Busch Stadium. But I also think that's why Dewitt and Company have gotten a free pass on a decade's worth of abject disappointment, countless delays, and all kinds of false promises. We're talking about the Cardinals, after all. The KMOV report is the closest thing I've seen in a decade to anything resembling criticism of the project; normally the media is so obsequious toward the Cardinals that it's sickening (and I'm a huge Cardinals fan, FWIW).

It's also embarrassing to think of how easily our city's leaders were taken for a ride on this concept. And it's really convenient for the owners and city leaders alike to blame the economy for all of the false starts and abandoned plans over the years since this concept was floated as soon as the idea of a new stadium was first discussed in public about 12-13 years ago. In 2006, we were promised over 1,000 residential units, tenants like Barnes & Noble and Whole Foods, and thousands of underground parking spaces. I am of the mindset that this was all a mirage- that the Cardinals simply attempted to get the maximum subsidy only to put forth a minimum effort.

Alderman Ogilvie, I completely agree with your take on Ballpark Village. I am concerned about the impact of this project (the potential to actually reduce revenue elsewhere in downtown and the precedent it sets for future development). I am usually as pro-St. Louis as it gets, but I am completely disappointed by this project. And like you, I see the Cardinals' dumbing down of Phase I as an obstacle to future development, not a sign that they intend to develop more. Dewitt turns a fine baseball team, but he's a lousy real estate developer. And again, I simply do not trust him anymore.

Our city leaders don't know how to negotiate.

Maybe there is hope yet...
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/08/13/44 ... round.html

Cordish Co. plans to break ground in December on larger downtown apartment tower
BY KEVIN COLLISON
The Kansas City Star

An apartment tower planned for 13th and Walnut streets has gained two floors in height and 61 more units, according to a revised plan by the Cordish Co.

The 25-story, 311-unit apartment building, which is now scheduled to break ground in December and be completed in spring 2015, was discussed Tuesday at a meeting of a city development agency.

For a second I thought this was a new tower for St. Louis Shoot, maybe it's a good sign though.

Gateway City wrote:For a second I thought this was a new tower for St. Louis Shoot, maybe it's a good sign though.

Maybe I should have clarified... Cordish is building this tower in kc's p&l development... Same company and similar in most aspects to bpv. It was promised nearly a decade ago... And had been whispered about off and on since then. Finally, Cordish is following through with promise for "mixed use" and urban-style residential development (phases 2).

Why i bring it up here... This news (not only the tower but the fact they increased scope over what was released last year) gives me hope that Cordish may follow through or even exceed some promises with bpv. I have been betting against them as a company, while paying I'm dead wrong about them.

I hope we are all wrong about BPV since right now the whole project is a joke.

Alex Ihnen wrote:I think BPV will be cool (though not restore the street grid) eventually. It's a matter of how long we wait. Without the Roberts Tower, I think downtown STL would have a proposal like this already, whether it be Skyhouse, or BPV.

The KC tower has an interesting tax arrangement. Cordish gets 25-year 100% tax abatement, then pays half of that to the city to cover loses at Power & Light.

The KC Tower I fear will crash and burn. Downtown KC proper is horrid. There is no true residential area. The Plaza, yes. Downtown KC? No. P&L is a complete failure. There are no true benefits to living in Downtown KC.

tbspqr wrote:I have been betting against them as a company, while paying I'm dead wrong about them.

Same here. I'd love to be wrong about this. But we've already been waiting for a grand vision for the last dozen years or so. I'd hate to have to wait at least that long for Phase II.

Chalupas54 wrote: The KC Tower I fear will crash and burn. Downtown KC proper is horrid. There is no true residential area. The Plaza, yes. Downtown KC? No. P&L is a complete failure. There are no true benefits to living in Downtown KC.

I don't mean to be rude but have you ever been to DTKCMO? They have several areas within 'downtown' that have existing residental components: Quality hill, River market, and Crossroads. CBD proper had some residential and even Crown center has 2 residential towers (yes, technically in DT). I'm not saying they are NYC or Chicago.... But they are about the same level of development as DTSTL... And there for no need to dis them. Them being in a similar state of redevelopment to DTSTL is important because if their tower does well.... Gives STL more hope that cordish will make same 'gamble' here.

Chalupas54 wrote: The KC Tower I fear will crash and burn. Downtown KC proper is horrid. There is no true residential area. The Plaza, yes. Downtown KC? No. P&L is a complete failure. There are no true benefits to living in Downtown KC.

I've stayed at hotels in Downtown KC twice in the last year. It's not so bad at all. You just having a bad day?

moorlander wrote:

Chalupas54 wrote: The KC Tower I fear will crash and burn. Downtown KC proper is horrid. There is no true residential area. The Plaza, yes. Downtown KC? No. P&L is a complete failure. There are no true benefits to living in Downtown KC.

I've stayed at hotels in Downtown KC twice in the last year. It's not so bad at all. You just having a bad day?

Maybe . However, I was referring to the Loop of KC.