Ballpark Village

STLEnginerd · PostFeb 11, 2013#3762013-02-11T20:09+00:00

Questions for someone with more knowledge maybe. Does this site plan make sense.

Does it make sense to create streets that never existed (particularly the east west street pictured) rather than extending 6th and 7th to Clark. Especially considering that the bookend garage block the east west street from extending any further and I can't see redeveloping them until a substantial amount of the surface lots and green space in the area have been redeveloped first.

Is 8th going to be two way now that 7th is getting blocked off? Some may disagree with me but personally kinda like the one way streets downtown. So I like the current orientation of 7th although i would make it curve earlier to widen the lot on which the bowling hall of fame sits on making it more attractive for development. Once the other sites are developed then I see the other streets pictured as more of a pedestrian mall rather than having car traffic here.

As a phase one its seems OK to me but I don't know if it sets them up well for Phase II and III. That's my larger concern since the decisions made now are ultimately going to affect how the final product looks.

Stylistically, Also concur on the "Live" signage, ugh. Not a big fan of the creek? or whatever it is either. Picture doesn't even show sidewalks the along the north side of Clark here.

And I need a better understanding of what that field is... park?, whiffle ball? batting cage? before i have a strong opinion. Batting cage could be really cool while they are waiting for developers, but I want them to build up to the street along Clark albeit with an extra wide sidewalk area to accommodate stadium pedestrians. When they later put in a high rise building put a batting cage on the roof top as well, now that'd be cool.

Presbyterian · PostFeb 11, 2013#3772013-02-11T21:07+00:00

^Curiously, there originally was an east–west street through this area. The new street roughly follows the original Elm Street, which was east of Seventh, parallel to and south of Walnut (and north of Myrtle, which Clark later replaced). Older city blocks from Seventh Street to the river were more compact.

1880:

Whenever the land under the Stadium East garage becomes too valuable for parking, I hope they rebuild Elm through that site, too.

RuskiSTL · PostFeb 12, 2013#3782013-02-12T04:28+00:00

So... they're tearing down the old bowling hall of fame?!?!?! Thats the only possible way to make the current site look like the graphic. Compare the Google maps and the rendering, the corner of the parking garage that is currently across from the old hof, is still in the rendering. But its across from a surface parking lot. PLEASE tell me i'm wrong!

dmelsh · PostFeb 12, 2013#3792013-02-12T14:17+00:00

The little creek is probably a temporary retention pond to help storm water not overload the sewer system during heavy rains. At least I hope its temporary.

geoffksu · PostFeb 12, 2013#3802013-02-12T14:40+00:00

dmelsh wrote:The little creek is probably a temporary retention pond to help storm water not overload the sewer system during heavy rains. At least I hope its temporary.

If anything, why couldn't this stormwater BMP have been developed as something more aesthetic like the raingardens at Citygarden or the raingarden installed on 11th Street? Instead we will go from DeWitt's Pond to DeWitt's Grassy Swale.

FYI: A write-up on the raingraden installed on 11th Street: http://www.hokproductdesign.com/myos/my ... ne2011.pdf

wabash · PostFeb 12, 2013#3812013-02-12T16:11+00:00

Seeing what they already have planned (and that there's now a pond/swale planned for the property), I think a Bass Pro Shop would actually fit in/make sense in BPV. Not that it's a good thing or that I'm advocating for it. It just seems that it would dovetail with the whole regional tourist, merchandisy, big spectacle sort of theme they're developing.

terence d · PostFeb 12, 2013#3822013-02-12T16:56+00:00

wabash wrote:Seeing what they already have planned (and that there's now a pond/swale planned for the property), I think a Bass Pro Shop would actually fit in/make sense in BPV.

Oh my god, you're right. [Insert final scene of "Planet of the Apes" here]

tbspqr · PostFeb 12, 2013#3832013-02-12T18:37+00:00

RuskiSTL wrote:So... they're tearing down the old bowling hall of fame?!?!?! … PLEASE tell me i'm wrong!

You are correct.
From a Cardinals/Cordish point of view, the HOF building lost all utility once the stadium moved. It had framed Busch II, but now it’s an odd-shaped backlot. The land under the low-rise triangular building was, from at least 2005 on, always planned to be incorporated into the ‘urban grid’ and filled with high-rise towers (or whatever BPV happens to become).
Ironically, the weak economy might have saved the building… the realization that high-rises weren’t feasible combined with the push to have SOMETHING built for the '09 ASG left open the possibility of completing a smaller, scaled-back BPV – one that kept the low-rise HOF building. However, nothing got new got built. In 2008 the Bowling HOF announced it would relocate to Tejas, leaving the building tenantless and (for all intents and purposes) useless except as a surface lot.

wabash wrote:Seeing what they already have planned (and that there's now a pond/swale planned for the property), I think a Bass Pro Shop would actually fit in/make sense in BPV. Not that it's a good thing or that I'm advocating for it. It just seems that it would dovetail with the whole regional tourist, merchandisy, big spectacle sort of theme they're developing.

I am not advocating for it either, but it wouldn’t be unprecedented to put a regional draw sporting goods store in an urban area. Bass Pro already exist in a semi-urban setting in 'Bricktown' downtown OKC... I haven't been there but have (honestly) heard good things about the whole area. Wichita has a Gander Mountain (similar type store) downtown along their river; their parking is in a shared 2 story parking garage across the street (only 120’ wide). While not within grid - as I said it isn't unprecedented. A little more urban-friendly - REI has located in several urban areas including Denver and Seattle (very cool stores). Scheels is usally a suburban mall type of store - but they don't have any locally and seem to be expanding. Any of these would certainly draw a different clientele... one Cordish seems to go after historically.

pat · PostFeb 12, 2013#3842013-02-12T19:51+00:00

^According to the History Channel's Modern Marvels, Bass Pro is the most visited tourist destination in Missouri ahead of the Arch, Zoo, and Busch Stadium.

RuskiSTL · PostFeb 12, 2013#3852013-02-12T20:47+00:00

anyway to find a demolition date?

dredger · PostFeb 12, 2013#3862013-02-12T23:45+00:00

I would actually go for a Bass Pro Shop/REI stores for the BPV. Not sure where the best place to site them within the development itself. But those stores would be unique to downtown and not draw away from existing business plus you still have plenty of room for residential (most likely to happen in the near term), hotel (still need more conventions) and office space (it will be a while for a need) to fill out the remaining development.

stlien · PostFeb 13, 2013#3872013-02-13T00:45+00:00

You guys sound like you want a Bass Pro there, until they put a Bass Pro there surrounded by a parking lot. Be careful what you ask for.

tbspqr · PostFeb 13, 2013#3882013-02-13T00:59+00:00

^^ Gander Mountain in Wichita has a parking garage. REI Denver has an underground garage. Other Cordish developments have subterranean and elevated garages. With all the parking already in downtown, it wouldn't have to be a typical suburban store.

stlien · PostFeb 13, 2013#3892013-02-13T07:18+00:00

I understand what youre saying. But sometimes, people want to do things their way..and not the most recommended way.

Im just saying, if they were to put a Bass Pro or REI, I think we'll see parking around it. Even if its only like 20 or so spots. Ridiculous, I know. But ive seen worse.

dredger · PostFeb 13, 2013#3902013-02-13T07:40+00:00

I'm still at a lost on why they don't throw out some renderings of Phase II residential to get some feedback or find out if there is any interest. It is the one part of the market that is expanding downtown and some premium apartments/condo's across from Busch stadium seem likely to be successfull.

In the meantime, the reality of the St. Louis office market is that it will not support office infill any time soon unless a pretty significant relocation happens. Nor is there significant need for more rooms downtown or meeting space in the near term. The prospects for office and hotel development is far off in my mind. I think this is why some of us see something unique or different with a Bass Pro Shop/REI. What will it take to make it work is another question? Can Cordish/DeWitt make it happen without a cheesey suburban store in the middle of DT?

stlien · PostFeb 13, 2013#3912013-02-13T08:53+00:00

They can gain interest without making the renderings public. I agree on hotel, but I believe new office space can do well. I would rather wait for office and hotel demand in 4 yrs than have a bass pro in 2 yrs.

And of course Cordish can. The question is, will they?

matguy70 · PostFeb 13, 2013#3922013-02-13T09:41+00:00

I am just so glad this is not going to be like P&L in KC. That place is aweful! Downtown STL redeveloped itself without the Cards and Cordish. Its a Real Urban City nighborhood with great Real districts and developments!

debaliviere · PostFeb 13, 2013#3932013-02-13T14:37+00:00

matguy70 wrote:I am just so glad this is not going to be like P&L in KC.

It's not?

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 13, 2013#3942013-02-13T17:17+00:00

debaliviere wrote:
matguy70 wrote:I am just so glad this is not going to be like P&L in KC.
It's not?

Exactly.

beer city · PostFeb 13, 2013#3952013-02-13T21:07+00:00

Alex Ihnen wrote:
debaliviere wrote:
matguy70 wrote:I am just so glad this is not going to be like P&L in KC.
It's not?
Exactly.

Well at least its not going to take 2 to 3 million a year out of general funds - after a TIF has already been awarded. I think the architecture will turn out marginally better. P&L is pretty ordinary - made less so by tons of neon signage and graphics, late at night when the lights are all off, it looks pretty hedious.

dredger · PostFeb 13, 2013#3962013-02-13T23:48+00:00

stlien wrote:They can gain interest without making the renderings public. I agree on hotel, but I believe new office space can do well. I would rather wait for office and hotel demand in 4 yrs than have a bass pro in 2 yrs.

And of course Cordish can. The question is, will they?

I wish I could be as optimistic, I think the reality is 15-20 years out on office demand. Heck, the ATT Tower office lease expires in what 2-3 years and their is +500,000 sq feet that will be available considering the downsizing that has been happening in that one building alone.

Alex Ihnen · PostFeb 14, 2013#3972013-02-14T15:01+00:00

Latest tenant announcement: a PBR bar.

debaliviere · PostFeb 14, 2013#3982013-02-14T15:01+00:00

So, a new tenant will be announced today, eh?

PostFeb 14, 2013#3992013-02-14T15:11+00:00

PBR Bullriding bullcrap bar. Meh.

moorlander · PostFeb 14, 2013#4002013-02-14T15:28+00:00

Alex Ihnen wrote:Latest tenant announcement: a PBR bar.

There are not any country themed bars in downtown St. Louis that I can think of so I guess this fits a niche.?.?

http://www.ksdk.com/money/article/36305 ... rk-Village

It will be very similar to the PBR - BIG SKY bar in KC's P&L.

Ballpark Village

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