Crap.
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I don't think what's built here is all that important. It is, but what's much, much more important is the rebuilding of the street grid - this is awesome, and then whatever comes next. No 7 block monolithic development was going to be "cool". This is a start and if the next phases can be distinct, even interesting, then we'll have something.
I hate to see Cordish's Live! brand front and center. It's so dated and so forced. They've used it in Baltimore, Louisville, Omaha, and Philadelphia. They've even descended to the level of attaching it to casinos in Indiana, Maryland, Ontario, and soon Atlantic City. It feels so contrived and such a pre-recession way of approaching city development. In a way it feels very St. Louis Centre and not very Mercantile Exchange in its silver bullet/magic formula kind of approach.
The AB beer hall/garden looks like it could be all right. Kind of like an Urban Chestnut meets Broadway Oyster Bar with all of the cool and character wrung out of it. I want to like this project, but I'm finding it really challenging.
It would be great if they included an actual marketplace in the development. Something like Philly's Reading Station Market, Baltimore's Lexington Market, New York's Chelsea Market, Seattle's Pike Place Market, or Boston's Fanueil Hall, all of which succeed by drawing office workers, residents, and tourists year-round. It could also differentiate from Soulard Market by being less farmy and more of a high end food court. It probably doesn't fit into their saccharin corporate concept, but it'd be a nice surprise. If that is in fact the final/construction rendering, then I wonder what kind of marketplace they have planned. Maybe they're just using it in the strip mall sense of the term.
The AB beer hall/garden looks like it could be all right. Kind of like an Urban Chestnut meets Broadway Oyster Bar with all of the cool and character wrung out of it. I want to like this project, but I'm finding it really challenging.
It would be great if they included an actual marketplace in the development. Something like Philly's Reading Station Market, Baltimore's Lexington Market, New York's Chelsea Market, Seattle's Pike Place Market, or Boston's Fanueil Hall, all of which succeed by drawing office workers, residents, and tourists year-round. It could also differentiate from Soulard Market by being less farmy and more of a high end food court. It probably doesn't fit into their saccharin corporate concept, but it'd be a nice surprise. If that is in fact the final/construction rendering, then I wonder what kind of marketplace they have planned. Maybe they're just using it in the strip mall sense of the term.
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^ nice point re: Cordish - surely someone in their office understands some of this
Paric trucks on site this afternoon, couple of guys walking around with plans
What a lovely little parking village.
The massing is really nice: Small lots, counterbalanced by a bigger lot, bookended by monolithic parking garages. There's nothing else quite like it, even in major national parking hubs like Los Angeles, Houston, or Phoenix.
The massing is really nice: Small lots, counterbalanced by a bigger lot, bookended by monolithic parking garages. There's nothing else quite like it, even in major national parking hubs like Los Angeles, Houston, or Phoenix.
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Yes, but think "pad ready" sites. As Alex said (in different terms), the parking lots here are actually the most exciting portion of the project. Street and sub-surface infrastructure will be in place. So, ready to build sites for future development. Of course they are going to pave it and generate revenue in the meantime.
At the ground breaking office (corporate headquarters) and residential were mentioned. But, Cordish doesn't do much (if any)office or residential, so I would envision they and the Cardinals selling off or ground leasing the sites, but maintaining some kind of master lease over the ground floor spaces.
This would not be a bad option because an office or residential developer could do what they do best on the upper floors, and not really have to worry about filling the ground retail spaces. Leave that to Cordish, which is good or bad depending on you POV but they have connections and develop concepts if needed so at least the spaces would be filled.
At the ground breaking office (corporate headquarters) and residential were mentioned. But, Cordish doesn't do much (if any)office or residential, so I would envision they and the Cardinals selling off or ground leasing the sites, but maintaining some kind of master lease over the ground floor spaces.
This would not be a bad option because an office or residential developer could do what they do best on the upper floors, and not really have to worry about filling the ground retail spaces. Leave that to Cordish, which is good or bad depending on you POV but they have connections and develop concepts if needed so at least the spaces would be filled.
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So since this is phase one I'm assuming they're eventually going to build on those parking lots, right? RIGHT? (Somebody please say "yes").
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Yes, YES!!!! Mutlitudinous skyscrapers reaching for the heavens! (btw, I saw a scroll this morning on one of the news stations that a Korean company was building a skyscraper in LA that would be the tallest in the west, but I wasn't sure if it meant western US or The West, as in not Asia. Screw LA, let BPV hold reign for that!)JPCosgrove wrote:So since this is phase one I'm assuming they're eventually going to build on those parking lots, right? RIGHT? (Somebody please say "yes").
Part of "phase one" includes street-level and underground infrastructure for future developments on top of the parking lots, so as long as an economic appetite manifests for further development, I assume there's no reason to believe why further development will not ultimately occur.JPCosgrove wrote:So since this is phase one I'm assuming they're eventually going to build on those parking lots, right? RIGHT? (Somebody please say "yes").
The way they are positioning the building, I think they are expecting to keep some of that parking.
I don't get the little pond being planned to the left of a "softball" field? Weird. The superblock is also pretty disheartening. Hopefully with the Stadium Metrolink TOD study taking place it will show that those bookend parking garages are overkill and really need to be redeveloped.
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I had assumed that as well. The problem with that is that people are going to get use to it and will have demand for up front parking as a result. While I'm sure this is a good way to make revenue for these unused spaces, I can only hope they charge a lot for those spaces to discourage it. The problem with parking in St Louis is public opinion about parking. People think the city is the suburbs, and they want and expect to park in front of their destination. Maybe we can even blame the arch grounds parking that was once available while the arch was under construction. You can assume it increased people's expectations for close downtown parking. This shouldn't be the case. This is the city, and in the city you just don't have readily available parking and if you do, its not upfront. In large and urban cities you usually have to walk a few blocks from your destination, and in doing so you pass up businesses, and discover new places. It's the same with most train stations and bus stops.JPCosgrove wrote:So since this is phase one I'm assuming they're eventually going to build on those parking lots, right? RIGHT? (Somebody please say "yes").
In Chicago taking your car downtown is a last option thing. With my job, I have to take my car, and I really don't like it. You have to find parking which is either 15$ for 2 hours on the street, or 45$ for a day in a garage. It's expensive. If you choose to just drive on standby (not parking), simply to pick someone up, or drop them off, there's the issue of parking idle on the corner. If you're parking idol in an illegal spot, which is often the only choice, the police will simply come up and write the ticket. If you're still there when they're finished, they slap it on.
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Not sure whether I remember seeing the renderings posted. Definitely targeting the Average Joe sort of customer, which makes sense for this kind of development...
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I wonder if they would ever move the ticketed area perimeter across the street and around the new buildings just during games similar to what Boston does. Then people at the game could walk over there during the game. They already block the street to traffic on game days.xing wrote:What is this? A 2 floor building with a parking lot around it?
I think DeWitt/Cordish would bring a lot more to the table if they could provide a vision of what they expect out of Phase Two. I see well placed residential along Clark with office towers or maybe a hotel on the back/smaller footprints with this street grid. Someone must have thought their was more value in keeping a continuous block along Clark.gary kreie wrote:I wonder if they would ever move the ticketed area perimeter across the street and around the new buildings just during games similar to what Boston does. Then people at the game could walk over there during the game. They already block the street to traffic on game days.xing wrote:What is this? A 2 floor building with a parking lot around it?
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Will this ABI bar and Cardinal bar be open all year or just during the baseball season? I still see this as having little impact on St. Louis until it brings residents to the area. No residents = no life. I fear it'll be dead on non-game days and especially dead in the winter.
Bring to the table for who? All that would do is open the door for criticism, especially if things don't pan out. A hotel at BPV could be cool; hopefully the hotel market improves. We still have an empty hotel on Washington next to the convention center which will be reactivated before we see any new hotels in downtown (I think). And that will also put a hamper on any incentives the city would give towards a hotel project.dredger wrote:I think DeWitt/Cordish would bring a lot more to the table if they could provide a vision of what they expect out of Phase Two. I see well placed residential along Clark with office towers or maybe a hotel on the back/smaller footprints with this street grid. Someone must have thought their was more value in keeping a continuous block along Clark.
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A business relocation from outside the region, or residential, would likely be the only things which could expect to see near universal praise.