urbanSTL

I wonder if Fields Foods would look to expand? I go to their current location for lunch sometimes and it is pretty nice. Has a bar in it like Whole Foods does not that I wouldn't put it on a Whole Foods level. It does wine tastings and other things though, so I would think they could make it work downtown.

I could definitely see ten moving into a bear north neighborhood like grand center or near the new nga, but downtown seems a little too overlapping with the service area of their current store in Lafayette square


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^ either you or your autocorrect are drunk, I see! Anyway, I think I agree with your comment on Field's Foods.

my 2c. is I can't see two groceries east of Tucker, but hopefully we can get something in Downtown West; if not a full grocery like that weird report from this summer of a Fresh Thyme or whatever it was coming to the old English Living space, at least a decent offering like the old City Grocers. In addition, certainly something will be coming to the GC/Cortex area.

The grocers thats suppose to go into the Old English space is Lucky's from what a friend told me that its still suppose to be happening as he lives next to the building..
I know this would cause a little controversy but i can honestly see Culinaria moving into Phase 2 of Ballpark Village one it will be more space for them 2 a better opportunity to advertise cause honestly a lot of locals don't even know Culinaria exist and on top of that most don't even know its a Schnucks Market believe it or not yes i get it wouldnt be centrally located however still all people will have great access of getting to the store it'll also be closer to people who attend Blues games and possibly the new soccer stadium theres no secret Downtown can handle a grocery store its all about taking a chance and running with it turning something thats good right now and making it spectacular i also could see a CVS or Walgreens going into the former Culinaria space...

STLEnginerd wrote:
Any chance downtown could sustain a second culinaria location at BPV.

Definitely not singling you out... but some folks are smoking some heavy duty stuff in the past couple pages of this thread...

STLEnginerd wrote:

dredger wrote:^ Agree, subsidies for Schnucks moving a few blocks is pointless because I don't think anyone on this thread can see how the city or downtown would gain anything. Much different then Cupples X IMO with legitimate gain in Class A space and the possibilities of a significant job gains of an expanding company for downtown, even if the company is downtown already.

But my point is that it is not too far fetched of an idea that Schnucks as a business would entertain the idea or crunch the numbers of relocating to BPV if they believe it would be financial gain for them. The scenario in my speculative mind is BPV/Cordish would actively peddle the space to Schnucks, Target small store format, or anyone else. while letting it be known indirectly who is interested or not and see what happens.

Any chance downtown could sustain a second culinaria location at BPV. Certainly if it was fully built out BPV and the cupples complex could be a significant number of built in customers. If Schnucks rest on their laurels then will repeat what's going on in CWE where every grocer under the sun is pushing in on their turf. United provision kinda already claimed the Loop as well.

Targeted expansion of the culinaria brand should be a high priority IMHO. If not downtown, then maybe clayton...?

No chance


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I can't see Culinaria moving to BPV because it moves it further away from the residential base. Maybe there are other options now but when I lived on Washington Ave that was the only real option for things more than Wash Ave Post. Wash Ave Post was good for if I needed something quick or forgot something from Culinaria but I wasn't going to do serious grocery shopping there. Where it is now is more in the middle of all the new rehab apartments. I don't see how moving away from that helps it any.

Have to agree with bprop. There some serious kool-aid drinking going on here. I think it's as likely Culinaria closes and DT has no grocery as there is for it to support a second 6 blocks away.

wabash wrote:Have to agree with bprop. There some serious kool-aid drinking going on here. I think it's as likely Culinaria closes and DT has no grocery as there is for it to support a second 6 blocks away.

I agree as well. Seems to be a lot of overly optimistic speculation based on the "hidden" existence of some fantasy market demand. Culinaria recently renewed its original 7 year lease, for another 6 years, I believe. So, it sounds like it will be around for another few years at least. Longer is probably going to depend on continued modest growth in downtown residential and, hopefully, at least retention of the current number of jobs in the downtown core.

^Great to hear about the lease renewal.

wabash wrote:Have to agree with bprop. There some serious kool-aid drinking going on here. I think it's as likely Culinaria closes and DT has no grocery as there is for it to support a second 6 blocks away.

I could be wrong but I don't think there are any signs of Culinaria having trouble; I've heard they've outperformed expectations from the get-go and the recent infusion of ~ 650 new apartments within a block has to be a good thing for them. And the Locust row and Chemical projects would deliver another 200+ units if they get done. Good times!

Also, maybe I didn't go back far enough but I don't see any kool-aid drinking going on.... STLEngineered simply asked if there was potential for a second location at BPV once fully built out and with more development in the surrounding Cupples district. A few thought maybe relocation of the existing location is a possibility but I don't see any kind of "two locations is a no-brainer" comments.

^Fields Foods adding a location DT, with their store in Laf. Sq. and Culinaria still existing. Dierberg's opening a store DT and moving their headquarters there with Culinaria still existing, City Target , etc...

Good to be optimistic. But DT has a long way to go. It does all seem to be moving in the right direction as you point out StLR.

^ yeah, I think there is the "here and now" reality and then the "what if these big plans really get done" excitement....

my 2c. is that right now downtown can't support much more than Culinaria, maybe something modest in DW. But if most of these big projects that are on the drawing board actually move forward, I can see another option 2018-2020-ish in Downtown West and maybe a small offering in BPV/Cupples area... Culinaria Express?

STLrainbow wrote:

wabash wrote:Have to agree with bprop. There some serious kool-aid drinking going on here. I think it's as likely Culinaria closes and DT has no grocery as there is for it to support a second 6 blocks away.

I could be wrong but I don't think there are any signs of Culinaria having trouble; I've heard they've outperformed expectations from the get-go and the recent infusion of ~ 650 new apartments within a block has to be a good thing for them. And the Locust row and Chemical projects would deliver another 200+ units if they get done. Good times!

Also, maybe I didn't go back far enough but I don't see any kool-aid drinking going on.... STLEngineered simply asked if there was potential for a second location at BPV once fully built out and with more development in the surrounding Cupples district. A few thought maybe relocation of the existing location is a possibility but I don't see any kind of "two locations is a no-brainer" comments.

I think they have worked hard to make and keep Culinaria profitable. I usually visit the store between 2 and 3 times each day and have done so ever since they opened. Some observations: Over the years Culinaria has gone thru several substantial iterations of changes in product offerings/mixes to improve sales/profitability. They have reduced labor costs by lowering the number employees per square foot of store. They have eliminated some of the department head positions. They have converted from having off duty police/sheriff deputies for security to private security company guards for security. I think they are savvy and will continue to do okay but it won't be automatic.

chaifetz10 wrote:

chriss752 wrote:If the Mike Shannon's building is demoed and a high rise rises in its place, it would look great there. Then the lot next door to Busch Stadium to the East could get built on. But I only see these starting if Ballpark Village begins


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Wont happen since the Cardinals/Cordish get to approve any height where Shannon's is now. Until they have BPV built all the way out, there's zero chance they'd let a competitor build something right next to their investment; at least one that would be competition to their potential high rises.

Mike Shannon vs. the Cardinals: Longtime broadcaster fights team over downtown property

Longtime St. Louis Cardinals broadcaster Mike Shannon is in a dispute with the team over a height restriction at the downtown property that housed his now-shuttered restaurant, according to three people familiar with the matter.

Shannon wants to sell the property, at 620 Market St., but argues that the deed restriction on the property would dissuade buyers, the people said. It provides that no improvements may be erected that exceed 35 feet above grade.

more
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... er.html#i2

I remember way back when the Hilton built their triangular-shaped addition, they agreed to move it back from the street so as not to block the view of the Arch for the folks in the then-new buildings to the west. Not sayin' it's right; just sayin'.

If it was anyone else I'd say they should pay up for those property rights. But this is Mike Shannon, the guy's an absolute treasure and helped get the Cards 2 world championships. Give him the damn deed restriction so he can tear it up.

If that height restriction is so important to DeWitt, how about the city taking some of the money they plan to give to BallPark Village 2, and instead give it to Mike to make up the delta between what he can get with the restriction, and what he he should get without it. Then Dewitt gets the height restriction he craves, but less financial help from the city as a result.

Agree with you guys. The height restriction is anti-competition and should be removed. When the height restriction was put in place, Busch Stadium was up against the property. So I understand why it was put in place to protect against a Wrigley Field type situation. But now that the stadium is two blocks south and there will be a BPV Phase 2 between Mike Shannons and Busch Stadium, this is absolutely no longer an issue. So considering Mike Shannon's history with the Cardinals and what I just said, the Cardinals should remove the height restriction. To not waive the restriction to just to protect their tax-payer funded BPV is ridiculous.

^ I agree; seems like the purpose of the restriction is no longer relevant and is a detriment to the public good now. However, any plans for a ferris wheel should be rejected.

Ferris Wheel deal is dead. Bob got his way

wabash wrote:If it was anyone else I'd say they should pay up for those property rights. But this is Mike Shannon, the guy's an absolute treasure and helped get the Cards 2 world championships. Give him the damn deed restriction so he can tear it up.

I would argue one step further. A class act with a class organization that has a fee coins in the piggybank would go out of its way to give Mike Shannon a respectable offer knowing dam well they get a good piecebof real estate in the day.

DeWitt family is shewd enough to know that consistently winning is how you make money in pro sports. However, Its deal with Cordish shows the character at end of day and the latest with Mike just reinforces it.

So the Cardinals hold the rights to the height restriction even though they don't own the land? I would think the city would be who has the say in it. Did the Cardinals sell that land to Mike and put that language in that deal? Someone fill me in here.

^ I believe Arch City is using the correct terminology in deed restriction which I understand was placed & carried through on previous sales of property Believe the city can't do anything about as it is a binding obligation in a contract....my attempt at fancy way to state that Mike Shannon unfortunately bought into it.

Still can't understand what would seemly be a good investment on the part of DeWitt's family to buy him out, good PR and a nice real estate pickup. In the meantime Koman making a play to build on the west and a real estate developer bought the lot/property to the east. Or is this a good ol real estate shakedown to get Mike Shannon to drop his price?