urbanSTL

^Yeah thats true. Places like Lucas park and Robust are safe for now.

However Dubliner already stated they have seen a 30% hit. Just from casual observation. . .Leaving the gym on a nice evening i would see the Flannerys patio half to reasonably full. THis summer it is almost always empty. I dont care if these places dont survive as long as they are replaced with something. Something that caters to residents. But look at all the empty spaces. . .Mosaic, Diner corner of tucker and wash, Bogen corner spot, Rue 13, the art gallery next to it, Lola, Tomorrow Gelateria. Probably not all BPV related but sure a bummer. But ive complained about this many times and maybe im biased because my frustration may be clouding things.

It sure would be nice to see Wash Ave become more high end and leave the sports bars to BPV. But i dont know if STL can support a High End stretch?

^That same phenomenon has me scratching my head about Gelateria Tavolini closing up shop. Apparently they were doing alright, with no major drop-off in activity, but just couldn't come to terms with their landlord on a new lease. How are retail spaces getting more expensive when no one is renting them?

dweebe wrote: I'm sure nearby residents wouldn't mind Washington Ave quieting down even if it means plenty of empty slots.

Thats an interesting point. I wonder if im in the minority. When i moved to Wash Ave i envisioned it becoming a bustling stretch like the loop. I would much rather have constant day and night activity. Of all types, retail, nice bars and destination and high end restaruants, etc. But your right some residents would rather it be quiet. I would imagine there is an age range where the line is split.

As for infill. Part of my frustration is all this talk of building up the area around BPV. But there as been very little talk of continuing the momentum around washington. Why build up that area around BPV? The people who frequent BPV will most likely not be able to afford to move into the BVP resdiential. THose will get bought up and be weekend homes or overnight places. And corporate use, etc

dweebe wrote:

bigmclargehuge wrote:Me when i realize BPV is slowly going to close almost everything on washington

Somehow I view the Venn diagram of "BPV customers" and "Washington Ave customers" not crossing over significantly. The only issue I could see for BPV stealing customers is from sports bars like Flannery's, Bobby's Place and Over/Under.

You'd be surprised. I think there's a lot of crossover. There are bartenders who work on Wash ave and at BPV and they say they see a lot of their customers at BPV more so than Wash Ave now.

Wonder what this will do to pre game business in Soulard for those that also run shuttles to Blues games from there.

I always take the Hammerstones shuttle any time i go to blues/cards game, driven by Mr.Larry King. no kidding, his name is Larry King

^Agreed. It's easy to envision an additional 600+ units in/around OPO Plaza (Arcade, Chemical, Alverne, 720 Olive, 705 Olive) anchoring activity up there. It's just a matter of getting it all going.

^ Between the Butler's Brother Building, the Railway Exchange, and the Jefferson Arms, we still have some massive buildings that could easily add 1000 apartments to the downtown area. I believe downtown will get to the critical mass , but it will likely be another 10-20 years before it feels like a big city downtown again. I still think we are a few thousand residents away from seeing retail for everyday use and we are likely 5-10 years away from a high rise boom, because I think that's how long it will take to feel up the remaining historic stock downtown.

Sobering and realistic numbers. Sh!t maybe even optimistic numbers. I just wish downtown felt like it had momentum. Its just coasting. When the loft boom hit, early 2000s, you could just feel things progressing. It just doesnt feel like that. Crossing my fingers your wish list is reality but sadly i will be married, kids and moved on by then

^ exactly, 350 is like one big project a year or maybe a few mid size projects, but in all honesty we may be seeing a slow down because of some post recession malaise (fingers crossed). With that said say we get anywhere from 300-500 people/year move downtown. That's like saying we will finish Jefferson Arms in 2016, Railroad Exchange in 2017, Butler's Brothers in 2018 etc.. With that kind of trickle growth, its easy to see how it will reasonably be 2020 before all of the major old buildings get filled. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like lenders are very bullish on downtown living even though there is obviously strong demand for 2 to 3x as much construction in my opinion. The problem is that St. Louis lenders are so suburban oriented, there really is a dearth of confidence in urban investment in this region. I also think our TOD projects will have trouble coming to reality without major subsidization and government intervention, despite regional and national trends that we are seeing a major surge in desire to live mixed use near transit. Its crazy to see Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, even Charlotte see TOD proposals pop up every week and we have yet to see one major TOD proposal in the 20 years we have had Metrolink, but obviously that is linked to our slow economic and population growth. I wonder how many millennials we have lost, because local developers and governments dont "realize" young people want vibrant urban neighborhoods.

Not necessarily the discussion for this thread... but I'm in Indianapolis right now where they're putting up 1000+ units/year downtown. The downtown area here is really the only bright spot for me and I can't figure out why it's booming so much when the city as a whole has much less going on than stl, is smaller, more conservative, and anyone I've talked to about it thinks stl is a much more happening/cooler place. The one difference I do see (or maybe I'm just closer to it) is that more companies are moving workers downtown.

Frustrates me to no end that most of my friends here would be happy being transplanted to st. louis instead as it is a "big/real city" with "things to do" but people pay just as much to live here in fiber cement siding boxes that are thrown up.

Kinda think the recent discussion above is fitting to have on this thread. Why?, the one project that will be new construction/infill going forward will be BPV. A project that can add some excitement to finish out the year and give momentum into next year for downtown is BPV announcing phase II. A project that can possible pull in tenants and pull more outside dollars into downtown, maybe even a corporate location, is BPV.

Just need DeWitt to pull the trigger even if his family has to put some dollars into the bet. I would certainly say that St. Louis has put their money into supporting the Cards Franchise. Time for DeWitt to deliver more then just a winning team.

deformative wrote:Not necessarily the discussion for this thread... but I'm in Indianapolis right now where they're putting up 1000+ units/year downtown. The downtown area here is really the only bright spot for me and I can't figure out why it's booming so much when the city as a whole has much less going on than stl, is smaller, more conservative, and anyone I've talked to about it thinks stl is a much more happening/cooler place. The one difference I do see (or maybe I'm just closer to it) is that more companies are moving workers downtown.

Frustrates me to no end that most of my friends here would be happy being transplanted to st. louis instead as it is a "big/real city" with "things to do" but people pay just as much to live here in fiber cement siding boxes that are thrown up.

When you compare the scoreboard St. Louis destroys Indianapolis. Outside of downtown and Broad Ripple, what interesting neighborhoods/areas do they have?

goat314 wrote:^ exactly, 350 is like one big project a year or maybe a few mid size projects, but in all honesty we may be seeing a slow down because of some post recession malaise (fingers crossed). With that said say we get anywhere from 300-500 people/year move downtown. That's like saying we will finish Jefferson Arms in 2016, Railroad Exchange in 2017, Butler's Brothers in 2018 etc.. With that kind of trickle growth, its easy to see how it will reasonably be 2020 before all of the major old buildings get filled. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like lenders are very bullish on downtown living even though there is obviously strong demand for 2 to 3x as much construction in my opinion.

And the momentum seems to have almost entirely shifted to the CWE/Cortex. The Arcade is a promising sign, however, and downtown needs to follow it with more.

Phase 2 in coming. Prepare yourselves.

ready?

A RESIDENTIAL TOWER- being designed now! and my source is solid

shimmy wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote:Phase 2 in coming. Prepare yourselves.

ready?

A RESIDENTIAL TOWER- being designed now! and my source is solid

Any idea of the timeframe for an announcement? World Series?

He wasn't sure on the time frame but soon. He works for the firm in Baltimore that's designing it but residential design isn't his part of the shop...

Vegas has 1 in 100 odds they'll break ground before Jan, 1 2020.