Too bad they couldn't save the facades of those buildings for the new project.moorlander wrote:All of this would be lost.
Probably cost prohibitive.
Probably cost prohibitive.
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I think the first Crossing on Clayton building is a 245 unit proposal, which would make an even 600 units between these two. It was last reported it was supposed to start construction this Spring... anyone have an update? If you throw in the 250 or so apartments proposed as the first phase of the project across 64/40, that is a heck of a lot of new construction multi-family that could be coming on the market in a year or so.arch city wrote:I like it. I think the glass and height alone will further modernize the skyline - especially if The Crossing goes up too. ?
Definitely one of the best elements of the design.arch city wrote: I like the soaring triangulated base accent design - which is also a departure from your typical base entrances.
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What new jobs will anchor all this Mid-County residential construction? Brown Shoe Co. or Centene expansions? APEX Oil's new headquarters? Are there any others? Or is it just people who want to live close to the MetroLink so they can get to work at BJC, CORTEX, Downtown, etc. but don't want to live in the City? I mean, I would rather live IN Midtown, not just commute there. Midtown is way cooler than Clayton. But that's just me. Maybe some people don't feel safe there.
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^ good question.... I suppose most of the market would be current west countians and newcomers to the region who are interested in modern high-rise living and work in the surrounding area. Although I'm sure some of these potential renters would consider downtown, I don't think towers in Clayton would negatively impact the potential market for downtown too much. It may have more impact on CWE demand, although that place can hold its own.
edit: I also wouldn't be surprised if there are quite of few active seniors interested in Clayton (and CWE) high-rise living over downtown.
edit: I also wouldn't be surprised if there are quite of few active seniors interested in Clayton (and CWE) high-rise living over downtown.
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I wish Clayton, Brentwood, or another Mid-County got a new college campus right next to a MetroLink station. Imagine if The Art Institute and the other phases of The Streets of St. Charles were instead constructed at either the Maplewood, Forsyth, or even Shrewbury stations!
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^ Someone was asking about Boulevard Phase II, doesn't sound like anything is forthcoming on that, which is a surprise. I also think that bank they built across the street is just a waste of what should be valuable real estate... I'm not sure how they allowed that to be built.
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I don't get the hatred towards Clayton? Hate the City for being stupid to allow such a divorce to happen to allow Clayton to be what it is today. To me i think this is good for all of St.Louis.. I'll just be upfront and say Clayton is fresher than downtown St.Louis and besides Clayton doesn't have the old historic rehabbing building stock such as downtown. I don't see this in anyway taking away from downtown. Soon enough there will be many announcements coming to downtown. Lets face it Clayton is here to stay wether we like it or not... I for one have come to realize if the city didn't do what it did back then then Clayton wouldn't be what it is today. Between the 2 big announcements in Clayton i couldn't see another high-rise being proposed as when these 2 get built they have to absorb.. As far as downtown it will have to just continue to absorb what it has in the old building stock.. Heck you still have the old hotel Jefferson needing to be brought back to life..
Clayton Fresher /Downtown Hipper..
Clayton Fresher /Downtown Hipper..
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It's simple really. Clayton is more affluent and has stolen jobs from the city and that's why people dog on it. If the city line extended to the inner belt you'd hear much more appreciation.
In my experience, and i've lived in the Moorlands for 10 years now, Clayton isn't any less vibrant than most areas in the city. Central, Maryland, Forsyth, Wydown, and Demun all have vibrant and active blocks where you'll find street life after hours and on weekends. It's not all just a bunch of old people and commuters.
The residential architecture is superb. The amenities are almost stupidly endless (do I really need 9 grocery stores within jogging distance?), and the "walkability" in many areas is as good as you'll find in the region.
Now don't get me wrong. There is still much that needs improving and I think they're on the right track with the new urban plan they've developed over the last few years. In time these can hopefully chip away at the dead spots in the CBD.
In my experience, and i've lived in the Moorlands for 10 years now, Clayton isn't any less vibrant than most areas in the city. Central, Maryland, Forsyth, Wydown, and Demun all have vibrant and active blocks where you'll find street life after hours and on weekends. It's not all just a bunch of old people and commuters.
The residential architecture is superb. The amenities are almost stupidly endless (do I really need 9 grocery stores within jogging distance?), and the "walkability" in many areas is as good as you'll find in the region.
Now don't get me wrong. There is still much that needs improving and I think they're on the right track with the new urban plan they've developed over the last few years. In time these can hopefully chip away at the dead spots in the CBD.
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Mid-County is just as much of a city as an actual city is.
Mid-County:
Area - 53 sq. mi.
Population - 182,000
Density - 3,433 residents sq/mi
If St. Louis City limits had been expanded long ago to include it, St. Louis City would be 105 sq. mi. with about 500,000 residents. By comparison, Denver is 155 sq. mi. with 634,000 residents. I am sure that if someone did the math and threw that extra 50 sq. mi. onto that hypothetical version of St. Louis, it would also have at least 634,000 residents as well. St. Louis City seems smaller than it really is because it's only 62 sq. mi. Really, though, even Seattle City is basically just a big, sh-tty version of Kirkwood.
Mid-County:
Area - 53 sq. mi.
Population - 182,000
Density - 3,433 residents sq/mi
If St. Louis City limits had been expanded long ago to include it, St. Louis City would be 105 sq. mi. with about 500,000 residents. By comparison, Denver is 155 sq. mi. with 634,000 residents. I am sure that if someone did the math and threw that extra 50 sq. mi. onto that hypothetical version of St. Louis, it would also have at least 634,000 residents as well. St. Louis City seems smaller than it really is because it's only 62 sq. mi. Really, though, even Seattle City is basically just a big, sh-tty version of Kirkwood.
The area inside 270 and the river is 225 sq mi, about as big as Chicago. KC is 313. Anyone know how many people live within?
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Let me try to explain 1 point of view on this. I don't think anyone "hates" Clayton. I'm really glad that people like it and find it a great place to live/raise a family/root down and be part of. Wave that flag and be proud. Be happy you just got a big new tower. But here's the rub. Centene was going to build an HQ at BPV....things didn't pan out and they found a better situation in Clayton. Bad for St. Louis tax base, reputation and vibrancy. Good for Clayton tax base, reputation, vibrancy. A wash or general plus for "the region". What the big deal? It's all good, the majority of the region will say...St. Louis benefits from Montgomery and Centene and RGA , etc too what does it matter where they "actually" are. But, here's where you may feel some sourness on the whole Clayton vs. St. Louis thing from some St. Louisans: the endless b*tching about St. Louis from county people. What are their beefs? Horrible schools and horrible crime. My personal response has become (because fighting back is futile and I'm getting tired of the confrontation), you are either part of the problem or the solution. So, if one chooses to not pay St. Louis taxes (how schools are funded), not vote on St. Louis offices and ballot initiatives (how our leadership is defined), not work their ass off to help make it harder for criminals and thugs to operate in the city, and not work on making the city schools a better place and moving to the burbs where the schools and crime are already a-ok...well there's the thing. I think it's not hatred as you said, just getting tired of bait/switch and not being able to compete with your neighbor who has much greater resources and initiative. It's not an easy or pleasant situation. We need change for sure. I for one don't hate Clayton, I just wish St. Louis had more money and jobs and residents to help fund our schools and crime problems.BrickCity4470 wrote:I don't get the hatred towards Clayton?
It reminds of a place I used to work. Me—single-income, family of five—struggling to pay for mortgage, two cars, kids' private school, four cellphones for stay-at-home wife, myself and two kids plus clothing and feeding them all. And the young, single, 20-somethings mocking me as an 'outdated, middle-aged fart' because I don't have the "latest iPhone" and still walking around with a dumb Samsung POS. Clueless. And yes, I'm still bitter.
I think you can see the analogy between St. Louis City and Clayton.
I think you can see the analogy between St. Louis City and Clayton.
I'm OK with the new tower design, but I sure hope that parking garage is handled well; it's gonna be the dominant feature from street level.
Seems to me that this design is quite similar to The Crossing a couple of blocks south.
Seems to me that this design is quite similar to The Crossing a couple of blocks south.
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I think it looks cooler than the Crossing.
Also, about the Crossing:
$70M phase I, takes up a quarter of the block. Entire development will cover entire block and cost $340M. Are they just going to build a bunch of 26 story towers? Or will one of them be very short and another very tall, like Montgomery Tower? Perhaps even taller? I hope in 2020-ish, the last phase of the Crossing involves a 500 foot tower. It might be able to work if enough jobs are added to Clayton, i.e. Brown Shoe, APEX, Centene's expansion, etc.
Also, about the Crossing:
$70M phase I, takes up a quarter of the block. Entire development will cover entire block and cost $340M. Are they just going to build a bunch of 26 story towers? Or will one of them be very short and another very tall, like Montgomery Tower? Perhaps even taller? I hope in 2020-ish, the last phase of the Crossing involves a 500 foot tower. It might be able to work if enough jobs are added to Clayton, i.e. Brown Shoe, APEX, Centene's expansion, etc.
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I thought they were one in the same until someone mentioned them as separate things earlier today. Thought this was another updated rendering. Now I'm jealous for downtown.framer wrote:Seems to me that this design is quite similar to The Crossing a couple of blocks south.
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As long as these major developments/investments in St. Louis continue along our major transit corridor I don't see a major downside. The CWE continues to build more momentum than anywhere else in the region, and downtown will continue to gain with the new residential projects to commence this year.
If anything, I am amazed the last year and a half hasn't sent everyone in the state clamoring to fund a N/S metrolink line, as well as an additional southwest line through the city. The common denominator of development in the region seems pretty obvious at this point.
If anything, I am amazed the last year and a half hasn't sent everyone in the state clamoring to fund a N/S metrolink line, as well as an additional southwest line through the city. The common denominator of development in the region seems pretty obvious at this point.
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I completely agree. We need a NS line, badly. Public Transportation is becoming 'in' and St Louis should capitalize on it. I am stunned STL hasn't built a commuter rail line from Downtown to Pacificnewstl2020 wrote: I am amazed the last year and a half hasn't sent everyone in the state clamoring to fund a N/S metrolink line, as well as an additional southwest line through the city. The common denominator of development in the region seems pretty obvious at this point.
Here's an updated story from the West End Word about this tower:
http://www.westendword.com/Articles-Cla ... z32sy2U2tp
Says that they're hoping to include a grocery store. Also, note that the rendering in the Word has a different treatment for the garage (not sure which one is the current plan). They're clearly still tweaking this part of the design.
http://www.westendword.com/Articles-Cla ... z32sy2U2tp
Says that they're hoping to include a grocery store. Also, note that the rendering in the Word has a different treatment for the garage (not sure which one is the current plan). They're clearly still tweaking this part of the design.
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^ i actually like THIS base. unfortunately everything above it is still awful.
Does downtown Clayton really need a second grocery store? Straub's has built up a lot of goodwill over the years and Schnuck's (Ladue Crossing & Esquire), Dierberg's, and Whole Foods are all just a stone's throw away. An expanded convenience store/World News would be great, but a full grocery store seems challenging.
The development partner said that they developed a building in downtown Nashville that incorporated a successful grocery concept. But it makes me wonder if that was the first grocery store downtown (similar to Culinaria) instead of competing in an already saturated area.
The development partner said that they developed a building in downtown Nashville that incorporated a successful grocery concept. But it makes me wonder if that was the first grocery store downtown (similar to Culinaria) instead of competing in an already saturated area.
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I was thinking the same thing.
Unless Straubs is moving in I don't see how any grocery could possibly work in that location. There are no less than 10 grocery stores within a few minute drive.
Unless Straubs is moving in I don't see how any grocery could possibly work in that location. There are no less than 10 grocery stores within a few minute drive.
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There was also talk of a grocery store going into the old Schnuck's on Hanley. Haven't heard much about that lately, though. They were going to build a high-rise there at one point. Maybe Straub's could just move into this tower, but then we'll have two abandoned grocery store buildings laying around.
^Exactly. It might not be as easy to lease or create the same wow factor for apartment renters, but having a variety of smaller specialty shops (more like it is now) could maintain more activity on that corner.
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^ While I think there is a large enough overall demand (and enough differential) to allow for success in the Clayton, CWE and downtown residential markets, the competition for street level retailers will probably be more competitive. I hope the rumors are true that Patagonia and other upscale retail may be going into new spots in the Park Plaza, because those same places just as easily could be drawn to new street-level space in Clayton and not have more than one or two Saint Louis locations.