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PostMay 02, 2013#26

STLEnginerd wrote:Some thoughts.

Not sold that their planned new attraction, the Earth Experience, will be a big enough draw. I understand their thought process though. They are really trying to create a NEW kind of attraction rather than just another aquarium which was apparently the overwhelming suggestion. Kinda of makes a person realize how challenging it would be to invent totally new attraction concept especially when it is sort of confined to being zoo-like.
We were at the Zoo this last weekend and as expected the place was very busy. Especially with tons of out-of-town visitors from Chicago: you'd think you were at a hockey game with the number of people wearing Blackhawks jerseys.

I heard two separate groups of Chicagoans trying to figure out where the Aquarium was. One group asked a zoo worker where it was and she apologized saying that while the zoo didn't have an aquarium per se, but there were similar exhibits in the herpitarium.

PostMay 02, 2013#27

stlhistory wrote:^Not related to the above, but my initial reaction is concern about the traffic situation being diverted to southbound Hampton. Right now, two exit ramp lanes go right into the two southbound thrulanes on Hampton. On nice days, they sometimes divert left-turning zoo traffic to other exits (Kingshighway or Skinker). If the zoo intends to close or modify Wells Drive and move most parking to Clayton access, I hope they put a dedicated offramp lane to Clayton/zoo parking access. Traffic going southbound backs up onto I-64 right now during rush hour, I can't imagine the ugliness of seeing zoo traffic and commuter traffic. This isn't Dogtown NIMBYism talking, either.
When MoDOT redid I-64 a few years ago they took the Oakland Ave ramp (right after McCauland) out since it wasn't really needed any more. We might be wishing for that back.

The only option I can see is moving the current Hampton/Oakland ramp back and adding an exit that takes out that small playground. Or something like that.

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PostMay 02, 2013#28

Was there any talk of pre-leasing to gauge residential interest? Could result in a larger scale.

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PostMay 02, 2013#29

shadrach wrote:
I think it's good like you say. I wonder though, if it has the status outside St. Louis we think it does? I know our zoo is always on the top of lists as one of the best zoos, but 1) feel that star is fading 2) I don't think the zoo has leveraged its status to its full potential. This proposal and vision, I hope, would elevate the zoo from a St. Louis attraction to a midwest/national attraction.
Zoo has incredible attendance which continues to increase year-by-year. I assume that this holds true with outsiders as well; I'm not sure what more they could do within their current confines. I kinda see this as the Zoos version of Ballpark Village.... both the Cardinals and the Zoo do some amazing things in their existing space; the question is what will they be able to do with their additional opportunity.

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PostMay 02, 2013#30

^"Zoo verison of Ballpark Village" is a good way to put it. The zoo does very well with their space and think that's what stopping them from making an entertainment district—hotel/restaurant/etc. Not advocating a fabricated, animal themepark. But I see the potential for restaurant/hotel/retail to augment the visitor experience in ways that are not possible in a city park.

For the tourist/traveler, it's the "convenience of things" and we're (St Louis) not really good at that.

BTW—I believe Gone Corporate wrote a really good article about the Pageant a couple years ago. That is a classic example of what I call "convenience of things." Address needs, make it compact and easy, sell it as a package.

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PostMay 02, 2013#31

Overall I like the overall boldness of the design. I had feared a lackluster south-campus – limited to overflow parking, administrative offices and maybe an education center. Worse yet, I feared that any land freed up by moving facilities across the highway would be turned into more paid parking spots. I was pleased to see the total elimination of the south parking, especially since they just finished putting $$$ into redoing that entrance. Moreover, I’m surprised to see elimination of any of the north parking lot – even if some of it is for the gondola landing pad. They are either being progressive or showing how desperate for land they are. I like the idea of partnering with a hotel, and agree with this forum that even higher density residential or office could be had.
When, previosuly, I mentioned “change their relationship to the region” I was hoping a more cooperative overarching vision with other regional institutitons. The zoo is the most ‘world class’ attraction that we have, and I think the most popular (more than even the cardinals in terms of visitors) and has the most political/fund raising pull. But I agree, even with new Elephant and riverwalk, sea lions etc…. their status has dropped some. To succeed to the next level (san diego level) they probably need to start more cooperation with cultural institutions. They already lost opportunity for a common parking facility with SLAM. I picture non-animal exhibits about science-y animal related stuff by the SLSC at the zoo (biology? Genetic engineering sponsored by Monsanto etc); gardening and landscaping done by MOBOT (get registered as another botanical garden), animal artwork but contemporary art museum and SLAM, small aviary at MoBOT run by the zoo, transportation museum exhibit with the railroad, magic house helping with Children’s Zoo etc. They could have (maybe did?) offered to share cost of/use of office building on south campus for administrative tasks. This could have freeing up valuable space at all these land-locked institutions. Just general cooperation beyond the already nice taxing district shared funds. As far as public perception – as I mentioned, they are top notch in the region and would like them to become top notch (with San Diego type facilities) in the world. This is their opportunity to do so. Other thoughts:
1) Metered only-parking on Government Dr. and Wells Dr..
2) As for the (smaller) North lot… limit it to busses and VIP parking – and make it a ’covered at grade’ garage similar to Kemper Art Museum (KC). I love their water filled skylights above the garage – makes the light very cool. New space above garage = new exhibit space… maybe a good place to see an animal from below?. Or with an ever expanding elephant herd, maybe a much expanded pen.
3) At the new south campus, there is a need to minimize people queuing onto Hampton waiting to pay. I suggest the removal of the 350’ stretch of Clayton from Berthold to Hampton. On what is now Berthold/Hampton intersection, resign/reconfigure with two right-only lanes (south-bound) leading directly into parking structure. Do similar for exits, 2x left turn lanes onto NB Hampton and possibly a reversible center lane for beginning/end of day just like some theme parks. Whole point
4) – and/or – have a ‘main’ entrance into garage directly from EB I-64 (no need to get onto Hampton at all). Double lane the “Oakland Ave East” spur; signed “Zoo Parking”, before going under Hampton, branch off into a right-in-entrance-only lane directly into subgrade level of garage (below grade at Oakland – no signal needed). A 2nd entrance (and only garage exit) would exit onto local streets. I assume well over 50% of people come from the west on I-64, so this could help local traffic a lot (unless you want to dump them onto local streets in the hope of local patronage).
5) For the love of GOD please no surface parking on the south campus, with the possible exception of a very few short term parking spaces next to any ‘neighborhood’ shops (whatever you perceive that to be). Access to the site (both transit and car) is very good, density is key.
6) The new attraction on the south campus should be a destination unto itself … that is something that can attract visitors as a standalone trip. I would suggest relocating the children’s zoo there. It already stands out at the zoo as it’s a pay exhibit. I think having the children’s zoo next to the parking structure and the turtle playground would be very popular. Plus the area it occupies is such prime real estate – it can be used to expand Rivers Edge very easily or maybe a new exhibit all together.
7) Nix Gondola, not because I’m on an anti-gondola crusade or perceive a nefarious gondola lobby… but because we already have an iconic and ‘alternative’ mode of transportation at the zoo – The Emerson Zooline Railroad. Take the proposed pedestrian bridge idea and make it anything but ‘pedestrian’. . Use this basic layout, but expand the bridge to a 200 - 300' wide ‘park-over-highway’. Run the Railroad down one side (see #8), and on the other put a bike/multi use trail connecting to existing pedestrian infrastructure per that image. Down the middle, place a landscaped meandering path with Cassily style animal sculptures (interactive/climbable) … an extension of turtle park. Have the bridge start one level above Oakland and terminate at a new Grand Entrance Plaza, including main Entrance to zoo (where Sea Lion building was, near Big Cat Country and Historic Hill). Besides the Zoo Entrance and bridge, there should also be a transit stop (BRT/busses/FP Trolley), visitor information (about other cultural attractions etc), and another exhibit entrance, one to whatever attraction is placed over the existing south lot (my suggestion - #10).
8) South Campus would also be awesome with a family friendly destination hotel – a Great Wolf Lodge-type hotel/waterpark would work great here. It would attract people, especially during winter when the Zoo parking wouldn’t be that full anyway. The indoor water park portion of the Kansas City (KS) location is roughly 250’ x 250’. I don’t know how flexible those layouts are, or if you can put hotel floors above the water park, but that size would fit in the ‘pocket’ bounded by Clayton, Oakland and Hampton (across Hampton from Imo’s). Put 6+ floors of rooms above and you have as many rooms as KC’s location. Parking could utilize the adjacent zoo garage, rooms could even come with train ticket to zoo (See #9). Residential component would be nice, and is probably in demand, but the midrise uber modern residential development belongs (IMHO on the southern and western extremities of the project. Anything facing I-64 and Hampton should be geared toward visitors and zoo operations/administration (in a mid/high rise building) as much as possible.
9) Past the south entrance station there is a portion or track (behind snake building) heading toward the highway. Extend this section of track over what is now the south parking lot, it nicely meets up with the northwest corner of the south campus lot. Instead of having the train run behind the snaked and monkeys, it could continue straight (uphill grade to get over highway), go across bridge (mentioned in #7) over I-64 and Oakland (in a double track configuration) to the south campus station (within the 2nd or 3rd floor of the parking garage – similar to Disney Monorail picking you up at the Transportation Center). The train has a 150’ turning radius (guess) which would allow it to maneuver around the south campus. It could either pull a 180 within the garage, and go back across the I-64 pedestrian bridge OR it turn east (parallel to Berthold Ave), stop within the hotel (overlooking water park), then it can head across the bridge (just another WOW! Factor). After crossing I-64 and relocated Wells Drive, it would descend and veer northeast, go below grade (under the new grand entrance plaza) and meet up with the existing tunnel just prior to the Big Cat Country Station. The big cat country station might be relocated 200’ south to be directly incorporated into the Grand Entrance Plaza.
10) I think the South Parking Lot real estate is too valuable to waste on a safari exhibit … safari animals already have a presence so there would be nothing new added, no new draw. I’m just saying Shed or Georgia Aquarium’s footprint fits easily within the site (per google sketchup). Or make a tropical dome (bigger version of Climatron). Something indoors (open in more weather) and NEW – both in STL and possibly the US. And with my railroad transit idea (#9), to get from current ‘South entrance’ to the new south campus you’d need to have the train run through where the aquarium (or whatever) would be. It would be easy to not only have a station inside the aquarium (next to ticketing as I assume it would be a pay attraction), but you could also run the train through a tunnel surrounded by water (similar to sea lion sound pedestrian tunnel mixed with the Jimi Hendrix Museum in Seattle monorail tunnel). Add in a huge glass wall facing I-64 so people stuck in traffic can watch a whale? Talk about unique cultural experience!
So in any case – my fantasy would include an expanded zoo, new world class aquarium, new children’s zoo and an indoor waterpark all connected by ‘transit’ with truly world class flare… I know it’s not feasible, but some of the basic ideas it can be used. I just jotted this down after work…. Cobbling together random thoughts I’ve had since last night… hopefully it makes some sense.

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PostMay 03, 2013#32

zun1026 wrote:Just for fun: What ideas contributed from the nextSTL community made it to the most recent project reveal?
I remembered suggesting in 2011 that they move parking to the hospital site and use the current parking lot for more zoo. Of course, that was kind of obvious.

Back then, posters were concerned about the length of the walk from there. The proposed new walkway keeps the distance not much longer than the current walk from the most distant part of the current parking lot to the current entrance. Still not short. I wonder if the bridge is wide enough for one of those parking lot trams like they have at Disney World and used to have at Six Flags?

http://nextstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=184207#p184207

DaronDierkes expanded on my suggestion, and his ideas sound like what they are proposing in his last paragraph at this link:

http://nextstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=184219#p184219

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PostMay 03, 2013#33

The monorail got me thinking about the ferris wheel that was at FP a few years ago.... wonder how a larger, more marquee ferris wheel could get incorporated somewhere in the vicinity. (I also recall a ferris wheel pitched a few years back for Laclede's Landing.)

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PostMay 03, 2013#34

Amazing. We've been waiting for the CAR2015 Project to deliver only half of what the STL Zoo has done here. The South Parking Lot's footprint is huge, a ridiculous amount of space for the Zoo to expand and increase offerings. Meanwhile, parking is brought across the highway and kept stacked down in garages, out of eyesight. That the North Lot will also be reduced is wholly unexpected. I'm really curious as to what attractions the new buildings will have, but I'm sure they'll be first-class. And the gondolas will not only provide great views into the Zoo and add an extra-dimension to the user experience, but you know they'll charge for that. More revenues.

Revenues and costs are front of my mind here. I have a lot of confidence in the Zoo's Board by and large, as well as with their administration. And, I'm sure there's so much more in ready-to-make donations than I know for this project. Same time, I'm wondering if this will lead to more bond issues and/or whether this will be disruptive to the ZMD Taxing District.

The possibilities of boutique hotel / residential / office / mixed retail actually have me a bit apprehensive here. The Zoo is not in the business of being a hotelier, let alone developing professional office space. They didn't buy Forest Park Hospital to build condos. They are in the business of running a zoo, and they should keep that focus. I do believe that the Dogtown-side site could definitely feature a successful family-friendly boutique hotel, with 200+ rooms, one that can pull in sustainable revenues almost immediately while retaining visitors to STL much more strongly. And, perhaps they could also house science laboratories or other science-based business interests, in partnership with a local science-based company or organization with a long-term lease.

Should they choose to do so, I hope they look to contracting the management of these sites to an external developer, someone who can just let the Zoo itself passively allow said developer to run the operations, effectively and without scandal or disruption, and be able to deliver to the Zoo a stable, repeatable stream of revenue from such operations.

Retail will work here, maybe including a restaurant on top of the boutique hotel as well as coffee & small foods for Zoo visitors on the ground floor. Put the gift shop here, and make it big.

But... Condos? Those scare me here, and I don't think they belong on the site. Too much risk. Let someone else develop them nearby... Should this spur demand, I'd love to see a new high-rise tower along Skinker, or maybe on the site of the Lindell Bank south of Clayton Road.

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PostMay 03, 2013#35

Reducing the north lot to mostly bus parking would seem to indicate they will no longer use The Living World as a venue for things like wedding receptions, dances etc and shift that sort of stuff to whatever is built in the new south annex.

PostMay 03, 2013#36

For some reason when I keep thinking about what hotel brand could be successful at the south campus I keep thinking about Embassy Suites. Or maybe down one click with something like Homewood Suites or Residence Inn. I know those last two are just a few minutes away in Richmond Heights and IMHO could be a solid draw for Zoo/Forest Park visitors.

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PostMay 03, 2013#37

gone corporate wrote:Revenues and costs are front of my mind here. I have a lot of confidence in the Zoo's Board by and large, as well as with their administration. And, I'm sure there's so much more in ready-to-make donations than I know for this project. Same time, I'm wondering if this will lead to more bond issues and/or whether this will be disruptive to the ZMD Taxing District.
The price tag on this would be enormous.... just think how much to convert the south parking lot into more zoo exhibits alone. But my bet is that they won't enter into much risk at all with funding being mostly dependent upon a sure-to-be enormously successful capital campaign and a conservative degree of bonding backed by solid projections on revenue-based attractions. As for the commercial or other accessory development, I suspect they'll partner with an experienced developer taking the lead on a fairly conservative plan. I just don't think it is within the nature of this institution to risk its future with a bad gamble. And that is a good thing.

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PostMay 03, 2013#38

Got some great points Gone Corporate

I can understand an all inclusive hotel/resort idea in a lot of settings but not with a zoo that has a first rate reputation with working with animals first and foremost. Nor is the hospital site is truly big enough to do all things that is desired. I do think the idea of first class research/labs/admistrative facilities with stack parking to open up the huge space of the existing parking lots is huge to long term growth. You don't have to add exihibits today for North or South Lot, but it would sure be nice that the zoo knows it has space to do some truly impressive space for its animals.

Plus, I think there are some great locations to build another hotel that the area with Forest Park/expandind BJC/expanding CORTEX, so on can easily support. Maybe even two hotels, either revive the FPSE Drury proposal @ Kingshighway/I64 to putting a hotel/condo tower @ Kingshighway/Lindell across from the Chase (can't remember the name of the family who owns that property) to infill in one of CORTEX parcels off Boyle Ave to tearing down the Red Roof Inn or Holiday on Hampton to replace with something nicer and more rooms or even putting up another hotel at Hampton Ave/I44 interchange outright.

Heck, I believe the city or utulity is seeking development of a sizeable parcel along Hampton on the other side of I44 from the Holiday Inn or take a look at the science center to see how you could incorporate a hotel/parking garge in its surroundings. Both sites would probably have more then enough room to build a hotel with a water park feature. In other words. I really think the city should team up with a developer to carry the torch as well as taking the opportunity of adding more rooms in the immediate by looking hard at other possibilities.

As far as any new hotel development not being close enough. I stay at countless business hotels for work and one thing I notice is that those near attractions are more then willing to offer free shuttle service to fill in a rooms over what would be a quiet weekend business wise. It a win win, they get rooms filled and guests have front door servcie without having to look for parking, pay fees or hike from an off street somewhere with kids in tow. It also indirectly creates parking venues for out of town visitors who have driven into the area for the weekend.

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PostMay 03, 2013#39

gone corporate wrote:But... Condos? Those scare me here, and I don't think they belong on the site. Too much risk.
Why's that? Apartments are doing very well in this area - there's demand for housing. I think the real key here is that whatever is built facing existing residential in Dogtown needs to fit. There's also a small lot south of Clayton that's surrounded by residential - clearly infill should be targeted there. I don't have any real concerns about the zoo managing this stuff - surely they're smart enough to contract with others.

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PostMay 03, 2013#40

Here is a germanic take on a zoo-themed hotel right next to the Hamburg Zoo:
http://www.lindner.de/en/parkhotel_hagenbeck_hamburg
and
http://www.archello.com/en/project/firs ... ed-hotel-0

Definitely a different site setting but interesting nevertheless. Don't know if true or not, but this Lindner Hotel bills itself as the world's first zoo-themed hotel.

PostMay 03, 2013#41

Alex Ihnen wrote:I don't have any real concerns about the zoo managing this stuff - surely they're smart enough to contract with others.
I don't have any concerns, either. But again I think we'll get a rather conservative project considering the Zoo won't bear much risk nor the city. If a developer really thinks this is a gold mine they may take it upon themselves, but that remains to be seen. As always, let's hope for improved market conditions.

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PostMay 03, 2013#42

You have to wonder if a panda bear exhibit couldn't be part of the wish list the zoo has in mind for the south parking lot area.

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PostMay 03, 2013#43

Here's an idea that will work well for the Bible Belt: Recreate Noah's Ark to scale on south campus surrounded by a huge ampitheater and have a daily "Boarding of the Animals" with the various creatures marching over the pedestrian bridge. Could time this during the evening rush where I-64 traffic is already at a standstill so as to reduce motorist distraction. I am not sure if dinosaurs lived at this time or not, but we could always create animatronic ones if need be. I bet we could sucker the Missouri legislature to fork the bill. So.... surefire winner?

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PostMay 03, 2013#44

roger wyoming II wrote:Here's an idea that will work well for the Bible Belt: Recreate Noah's Ark to scale on south campus surrounded by a huge ampitheater and have a daily "Boarding of the Animals" with the various creatures marching over the pedestrian bridge. Could time this during the evening rush where I-64 traffic is already at a standstill so as to reduce motorist distraction. I am not sure if dinosaurs lived at this time or not, but we could always create animatronic ones if need be. I bet we could sucker the Missouri legislature to fork the bill. So.... surefire winner?
Just include the following picture with the materials and the rural Missourah legislature would be falling over themselves to give the zoo money.


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PostMay 03, 2013#45

The St. Louis Zoo Creation Museum...like the perfect blend of Missouri-ah.

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PostMay 03, 2013#46

No. Definitely no.

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PostMay 03, 2013#47

With a bit of cooperation from the other institutions, there is no doubt we could secure St. Charles County joining the ZMD. For the Science Center, we could have the Koch brothers and Exxon-Mobil sponsor the "Climate Change is a Fraud and Al Gore is Fat" permanent exhibition. SLAM could cover its nudes and build a collection of George W. Bush works ( http://gawker.com/5989592/george-w-bush ... ed-50-dogs) as well as Thomas Kincaid masterpieces. Mo History Museum could do an exhibit on how sue-happy Saint Louisans like Dred and Harriet Scott overburdened our judicial system and led to a desperate need for tort reform.

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PostMay 08, 2013#48

Way over the rails... This is about the Zoo, not personal politics. No more Christ riding a T-Rex, please.
Worst-case scenario: Some assh*le gets inspired and fights for these ideas to happen.

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PostMay 08, 2013#49

^Besides Cincinnati already has the Creation Museum and are well on their way to funding a FULL SCALE Noah's Arc. The new zoo attractions are supposed to be something new and different not just a second rate repeat of what Cincy already has. I say we let them have that one. :)

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PostMay 08, 2013#50

STLEnginerd wrote:a FULL SCALE Noah's Arc.


Big enough for two of every animal in Cincy? :shock:

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