I agree that there's a lot of value in downtown performing arts centers and it'd be great if we had one but the problem with Golterman's ideas (if you can reduce it down to only one problem) is the assertion that downtown will never recover without one. Like I said, silver bullets can help, but they don't make or break a downtown. I've never heard anybody say "I want to move downtown so I can be close to Busch Stadium, etc." People move downtown for the little things like being able to walk to their everyday needs (grocery store, dry cleaner, banks, etc.), not so that they can walk to a sporting event or concert once or twice a month. Make downtown an easy place to LIVE and everything else will fall into place.
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^ One would think this would the lesson of St. Louis for the past half century - our politicians and civic leaders, not Ed. Instead, we get $500M for the Arch, plans for a gondola, new stadiums, etc. If the Arch, three pro sports teams, massive park space and a convention center don't work, another big project isn't going to either.
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No doubt Golterman is way off base, but again I think Playhouse Square is instructive on how a forward-thinking institution like it can go hand in hand with creating vibrancy and livability that helps things fall into place.JPCosgrove wrote:I agree that there's a lot of value in downtown performing arts centers and it'd be great if we had one but the problem with Golterman's ideas (if you can reduce it down to only one problem) is the assertion that downtown will never recover without one. Like I said, silver bullets can help, but they don't make or break a downtown. I've never heard anybody say "I want to move downtown so I can be close to Busch Stadium, etc." People move downtown for the little things like being able to walk to their everyday needs (grocery store, dry cleaner, banks, etc.), not so that they can walk to a sporting event or concert once or twice a month. Make downtown an easy place to LIVE and everything else will fall into place.
But the key here is that it was an organic, long-term, hard work process -- beginning with the historic preservation of a historic theater that was about to go under the wrecking ball -- that made it into what it is today rather than building a shiny palace plopped down somewhere. With a firm belief that its role was not only to create a place for great art but also to create a great neighborhood, Playhouse Square was the first real success story that allowed people to think that perhaps downtown Cleveland once again had potential to be an interesting place to visit and even live. It still has some work to do, but it has long worked towards being a true live/work/play district and has made downtown an easier place to live. (And fwiw, yes, I have heard lots of people say they live downtown in part to be near the arts.)
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Not to drop a wet blanket on this, but I've spent a lot of time in Cleveland and am thoroughly unimpressed by its downtown and Playhouse Square. Maybe unimpressed is harsh, but what I mean is that even that oft-cited example isn't some cure-all. I think Grand Center here is a better destination for the arts - though clearly lacks the shear number of theater seats.
The comments in the stl today article are ridiculous. I understand that some people don't agree with the current plans for Union Station, but to call it a "waste of money" and say that "St. Louis doesn't need more meeting space"? Bob O'Loughlin, the CEO of LHM, is also the Chairman of the CVC. I think he would know if there's a demand for additional meeting space.
Definitely agree, I think LHM is right the company at the right time for Union Station. Bob is putting focus back on the hotel and knows the market well for space/meetings. Things will only get better once a sembelence street grid is put back after the short section 22nd Street parkway is finally gone and West Downtown sees some additional development activity. It will take a little patience but having a solid company with realistic near term expectations for Union Station is another plus for downtown.stlien wrote:The comments in the stl today article are ridiculous. I understand that some people don't agree with the current plans for Union Station, but to call it a "waste of money" and say that "St. Louis doesn't need more meeting space"? Bob O'Loughlin, the CEO of LHM, is also the Chairman of the CVC. I think he would know if there's a demand for additional meeting space.
I also think the excusrion train/dinner train is doable and will bring him some added revenue as well as a good reason for other people to come downtown. I also think it is a place holder for long term plans on this space. If the trains work and can be expanded upon, great. If it doesn't, it won't jeopordize Union Station's existence.
What I hope for is that MLS soccer stadium is something that will happen in/around/or near Union Station. It would make a great addition to Clark street feel that includes Cardinals/Blues/Concerts/Peabody and add some event days next and/or around the Union Station from an entirely different fan/sport base. Plus, it would also add some collegiate/recreational soccer events along with visitng soccer fan daytrippers that can easily get down from Chicago or over from KC on expanded rail service that is going to happen in the near future. If not MLS stadium, maybe a hard look at residential build out under the shed, more office in the future.
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^ IMO - the street grid will be huge as it will (if done well) put Union Station is the middle of an area instead of on the edge.
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Curious as to what you've experienced there. Grand Center is very nice and arguably is more rounded in its offerings as it has the symphony (at one time PSC was home to high quality resident opera and ballet companies but they both folded in recent years) and more art, but when it comes to live theater and concerts -- which put the most butts in seats -- there simply is no contest between the two.Alex Ihnen wrote:Not to drop a wet blanket on this, but I've spent a lot of time in Cleveland and am thoroughly unimpressed by its downtown and Playhouse Square. Maybe unimpressed is harsh, but what I mean is that even that oft-cited example isn't some cure-all. I think Grand Center here is a better destination for the arts - though clearly lacks the shear number of theater seats.
This Wall St. Journal article also gets at a lot of what is going on behind the scenes with its interesting role in real estate development: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ews_wsj%20
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Circus Harmony's Flying Trapeze School will be moving under the shed.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/09/26/ ... n-station/
Put in some other cool things and this could work out pretty well. Anyone hear anything more about the Sports Hall of Fame.... is that a go? Anyway, with this announcement along with the zoo's, it has been a pretty good day for creative attractions in Saint Louis!
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/09/26/ ... n-station/
Put in some other cool things and this could work out pretty well. Anyone hear anything more about the Sports Hall of Fame.... is that a go? Anyway, with this announcement along with the zoo's, it has been a pretty good day for creative attractions in Saint Louis!
^ It's a VERY interesting development as it relates to Union Station and, in particular, the trainshed. If this is, in fact, under the exterior trainshed and not in the Midway, then they must be removing parking spots, right?
It really gives me renewed faith in seeing my dream (and one of my better photo manipulations) of a winter ice rink under the trainshed! I know I've posted this before, but I think its a guaranteed success...especially for those 41+ Blues home games, before AND after:
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And the trapeze news brings me back to my old Transitioning the Trainshed idea as a whole. If anybody with better Photoshop skills than I could take these concepts...
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...and show how a new east-facing Union Station ferris wheel centered on Clark Street would look from, say, the Civic Center or Union Station Metrolink station, I'd be appreciative. Ferris wheels, trapeze, summer concerts and art fairs, winter ice skating...do want!
It really gives me renewed faith in seeing my dream (and one of my better photo manipulations) of a winter ice rink under the trainshed! I know I've posted this before, but I think its a guaranteed success...especially for those 41+ Blues home games, before AND after:
And the trapeze news brings me back to my old Transitioning the Trainshed idea as a whole. If anybody with better Photoshop skills than I could take these concepts...
...and show how a new east-facing Union Station ferris wheel centered on Clark Street would look from, say, the Civic Center or Union Station Metrolink station, I'd be appreciative. Ferris wheels, trapeze, summer concerts and art fairs, winter ice skating...do want!
Here I did a quick job for you. I think the wheel would have to face East / West to save some of the structure. If you don't care about the structure it could go either way.
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LHM seems to be doing right by Union Station. &66 million in upgrades should be coming that will include $10 million in repairs to the train shed and a $1.6 million appearance by John Goodman and a transportation museum, They also will put $$ towards sidewalk repair and lighting at underutilized Aloe Plaza across the street.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 7a0f6.html
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 7a0f6.html
I'm confused by this John Goodman video. Are they saying it'll be projected onto the ceiling of the Grand Hall?!
Because that's insane. The ceiling of the Grand Hall is the best part -- there's been many a-day where I've grabbed a drink and looked at it and the walls.
And who wants to stare straight up and watch a video anyway? Would that also mean the audio would be blasted out on a loop all day too? Definitely need more details here, because I'm not seeing it.
Because that's insane. The ceiling of the Grand Hall is the best part -- there's been many a-day where I've grabbed a drink and looked at it and the walls.
And who wants to stare straight up and watch a video anyway? Would that also mean the audio would be blasted out on a loop all day too? Definitely need more details here, because I'm not seeing it.
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^ yeah, wel'll have to see what they have in mind for this. My impression is that this would be some kind of projection onto the ceiling that would periodically display. I can't imagine they'd mess with the ceiling itself nor the overall sophistication of the space, but who knows.... sometimes designers/developers get carried away with tech and think its cool when in fact the actual display erodes character and experience. We'll see.
The project was awarded $3 million in New Markets tax credits:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... a001e.html
The article also mentions the project will include some renovation of the Metro Link Station and planned offices for start-ups.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... a001e.html
The article also mentions the project will include some renovation of the Metro Link Station and planned offices for start-ups.
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Details on the renovation of Union Station. Long read...
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magazine ... n-Station/
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magazine ... n-Station/
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My daughter and I went down there over Thanksgiving weekend to look around. A few fast-food type places upstairs and the fudgery downstairs, but no other restaurants under the shed. Still has Landry's and Hard Rock outside. The West wing of the midway was sealed in glass -- you needed a room key to get into that area. And this surprised me -- you have to have a room key to get into the head house from the shed. So I wasn't able to see the grand staircase, grand hall, whispering arch, etc. even though I still had to pay to park in back. To see the grand hall, I guess you have to act like you have hotel reservation and go in the front. All upper glass in the shed area is dirty, and the all the doors paint is scratched up. Looked like there were tourists from out of town who had probably heard how great it was from someone in the past. Empty spaces for Houlihans, Key West, Mexican, etc. with no boarding -- no obvious plans. It was a ghost town but it was open.
Just out of curiosity, is there some logistical reason Union Station couldn't be our Amtrak Station? Obviously money has been poured into the current station making it adequate (but entirely unimpressive), but let's say the loss of that investment wasn't a concern. What caused the move in the first place (or was Amtrak never there?) and why couldn't it be there now?
I just can't think of a better starting point for a once grand train station than the return of trains that are seeing a resurgence themselves. You want traffic, well there's your traffic.
But I'm sure if that made sense, someone would have made it happen by now. Maybe.
I just can't think of a better starting point for a once grand train station than the return of trains that are seeing a resurgence themselves. You want traffic, well there's your traffic.
But I'm sure if that made sense, someone would have made it happen by now. Maybe.
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My understanding (just from google searching for a paper years ago) is that it is more convenient for the Amtak trains now. They don't have to pull in, and back out of the train shed. With the current set-up, they can just pull through.jstriebel wrote:Just out of curiosity, is there some logistical reason Union Station couldn't be our Amtrak Station? Obviously money has been poured into the current station making it adequate (but entirely unimpressive), but let's say the loss of that investment wasn't a concern. What caused the move in the first place (or was Amtrak never there?) and why couldn't it be there now?
I just can't think of a better starting point for a once grand train station than the return of trains that are seeing a resurgence themselves. You want traffic, well there's your traffic.
But I'm sure if that made sense, someone would have made it happen by now. Maybe.
I agree with you though! I would much rather use Union Station as that hub. Similar to how Chicago does with its Union Station.
Back in the '80's, when Rouse Co. was redeveloping Union Station, there was an effort by the developer to return Amtrak service to Union Station. Unfortunately, Amtrak delayed too long in committing to the return and Rouse had already moved on with the Station redevelopment. Amtrak preferred straight "shot" through the St. Louis station. With Union Station, trains have a lengthy back-up to get into the station.
Some 1970's pictures of the Station with train service (http://www.trainweb.org/usarail/stlouis):
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Some 1970's pictures of the Station with train service (http://www.trainweb.org/usarail/stlouis):
Ah. I suppose that makes sense, but it doesn't seem as though it should be a make or break reason.
Again, I'm sure it's been explored so I'm just talking to "hear" myself talk, but if I had the money to buy and restore Union Station, that would not only be the first thing I'd look at, it would be my primary goal. I'd push Amtrak extremely hard to bring them back.
What could be better to revitalize a train station than regular every day trains.
Again, I'm sure it's been explored so I'm just talking to "hear" myself talk, but if I had the money to buy and restore Union Station, that would not only be the first thing I'd look at, it would be my primary goal. I'd push Amtrak extremely hard to bring them back.
What could be better to revitalize a train station than regular every day trains.
^ What stladvocate said.
Basically, in its hey-day, the volume of train traffic to, through and from St. Louis warranted a pull-in off the main lines. That, and it was just "the way things were done" then. Now Amtrak, as an economy train system, relies on tight travel time to serve its customers. The volume of St. Louis traffic couldn't justify a delay while a train pulled-in, picked up/dropped off, backed out back on to the rails and carried on.
And thus, the much-maligned AmShack was born (1978-2002)...
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The new multimodal Gateway Station actually does a pretty good job of consolidating train/bus travel around local connections via Metrolink and the 14th Street Metrobus hub. Union Station, sadly, is now poorly-placed as a point of arrival, surrounded by highways and on/off ramps, the lifeless Gateway Mall and parking lots.
Basically, in its hey-day, the volume of train traffic to, through and from St. Louis warranted a pull-in off the main lines. That, and it was just "the way things were done" then. Now Amtrak, as an economy train system, relies on tight travel time to serve its customers. The volume of St. Louis traffic couldn't justify a delay while a train pulled-in, picked up/dropped off, backed out back on to the rails and carried on.
And thus, the much-maligned AmShack was born (1978-2002)...
The new multimodal Gateway Station actually does a pretty good job of consolidating train/bus travel around local connections via Metrolink and the 14th Street Metrobus hub. Union Station, sadly, is now poorly-placed as a point of arrival, surrounded by highways and on/off ramps, the lifeless Gateway Mall and parking lots.
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Honestly, if they (who?) built a nice shed over the Gateway station platforms, with a nice StL logo on both ends, it would look all the more the part of a bonafide train station. Plus, people using the platforms would be free from the elements.
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^ that would be nice. I may be misremembering (is that a bushism?) but I seem to recall that STL put in a TIGER grant application a few years ago to extend and improve the platform... anyone with a better memory remember that?