Okay, I haven't kept up with this thread. I took it that literal plans from were to unveiled/presented soon.the count wrote:^ How so?
nevermind.
nevermind.
Here's what I hope doesn't happen: THF purchases Union Station and then works with McKee to redo the 22nd interchange to free up 20+ acres to build the type of real estate they're used to developing, a glorified strip mall. Then we would have a suburban Walmart (and other retailers) with suburban parking. Seems like a logical plan if I was THF.
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A WalMart at Union Station is a very bad idea. Ther reason we live in the city is so we arent subjected to this type of trash. To those who say that "well its better than its current state" are ginving into the idea while pulling the progress card, but deep down know that many other uses would be better than a Wally World.
We should strive for making downtown and Union Station creative and interesting. Not anyplace USA.
We should strive for making downtown and Union Station creative and interesting. Not anyplace USA.
- 11K
^ I get the sentiment, by what do you mean by "this type of trash"? The people who shop there? The corporation? Yes, STL should be creative and interesting, but I don't think anyone thinks Boston, Chicago or NYC are awful places because they have a lot of national chains and even quasi-big box right in the middle of the city. I think the issue is the form of development. And here, it's right to be skeptical that a WalMart would add to the urban form in St. Louis.
Hey, wasn't that Doug's line for IKEAdowntown2007 wrote:A WalMart at Union Station is a very bad idea. Ther reason we live in the city is so we arent subjected to this type of trash. To those who say that "well its better than its current state" are ginving into the idea while pulling the progress card, but deep down know that many other uses would be better than a Wally World.
Here's a thought... why not use Union Station as, well, a Union Station... Oh wait, that would require trains
I've said it numerous times (including on the first page of this thread): I want Union Station to be used as a Train Station. Specifically, I want it to look like Gare Du Nord in northern Paris.
I used this train station extensively when I lived in the Netherlands. I had no clue it was the busiest in Europe. FWIW, some platforms in Gare Du Nord are still of the "pull in/back out" variant. If the French can use, update, and keep current a train station built in 1846, we can do the same thing with Union Station.
The easiest solution would be to ice development on Union Station until mass transit funding loosens up at the Federal level. I recently listened to a NPR segment that said even Republicans are getting behind mass transit. Thus, wait for the funding to free up, incorporate Union Station redevelopment with the a HSR line serviced by the new (sucky) Amtrak station, and use Union Station as a hub for a regional line (like RER in France).
An aside: It blows my mind what kind of engineering Europe has put behind maintaining and expanding mass transit. I remember taking a Trenitalia line from Reggio di Calabria to Messina Sicily and the train broke apart and boarded a ferry which then docked in Messina, re-aligned with the tracks, and unfolded in Sicily. During the ferry ride you could leave the train (which was in the hold of the ferry) come topside, and smoke cigs while taking in the views of the Med. I was too ignorant then to marvel at the infrastructure, manpower, and engineering work that I was experiencing but in hindsight now realize how cool that was. The United States has the funding and engineering know-how to dwarf just about every other country when it comes to mass transit design. It requires a paradigm shift that I hope happens in the next decade.
Mass Transit rant over.
I used this train station extensively when I lived in the Netherlands. I had no clue it was the busiest in Europe. FWIW, some platforms in Gare Du Nord are still of the "pull in/back out" variant. If the French can use, update, and keep current a train station built in 1846, we can do the same thing with Union Station.
The easiest solution would be to ice development on Union Station until mass transit funding loosens up at the Federal level. I recently listened to a NPR segment that said even Republicans are getting behind mass transit. Thus, wait for the funding to free up, incorporate Union Station redevelopment with the a HSR line serviced by the new (sucky) Amtrak station, and use Union Station as a hub for a regional line (like RER in France).
An aside: It blows my mind what kind of engineering Europe has put behind maintaining and expanding mass transit. I remember taking a Trenitalia line from Reggio di Calabria to Messina Sicily and the train broke apart and boarded a ferry which then docked in Messina, re-aligned with the tracks, and unfolded in Sicily. During the ferry ride you could leave the train (which was in the hold of the ferry) come topside, and smoke cigs while taking in the views of the Med. I was too ignorant then to marvel at the infrastructure, manpower, and engineering work that I was experiencing but in hindsight now realize how cool that was. The United States has the funding and engineering know-how to dwarf just about every other country when it comes to mass transit design. It requires a paradigm shift that I hope happens in the next decade.
Mass Transit rant over.
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Both. It's a complete insult to Union Stations history and architecture for it to house a Wal Mart.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ I get the sentiment, by what do you mean by "this type of trash"? The people who shop there? The corporation? Yes, STL should be creative and interesting, but I don't think anyone thinks Boston, Chicago or NYC are awful places because they have a lot of national chains and even quasi-big box right in the middle of the city. I think the issue is the form of development. And here, it's right to be skeptical that a WalMart would add to the urban form in St. Louis.
They should put a Walmart at 11th & Cass. Parking lot is already in place.
- 11K
Who am I to say, but Union Station will not house a WalMart, a WalMart won't be going inside Union Station. Union Station is a National Historic Landmark and something like a WalMart wouldn't be allowed to alter the building or train shed. IF WalMart is going somewhere, it would be on land made available from a 21st street interchange. And for whatever one's view of the city's stewardship of our architectural heritage, there is zero chance that a suburban WalMart will be built next to Union Station. Union Station will also never be a train station as it once was. When it opened it was the busiest train station in the world and was still handling 100,000 passengers/day in the 1940s. That's not happening again. MetroLink tracks already jog to the north to get near Union Station and they won't be realigned further north.
Very kewl train story...ttricamo wrote:I've said it numerous times (including on the first page of this thread): I want Union Station to be used as a Train Station. Specifically, I want it to look like Gare Du Nord in northern Paris.
I used this train station extensively when I lived in the Netherlands. I had no clue it was the busiest in Europe. FWIW, some platforms in Gare Du Nord are still of the "pull in/back out" variant. If the French can use, update, and keep current a train station built in 1846, we can do the same thing with Union Station.
The easiest solution would be to ice development on Union Station until mass transit funding loosens up at the Federal level. I recently listened to a NPR segment that said even Republicans are getting behind mass transit. Thus, wait for the funding to free up, incorporate Union Station redevelopment with the a HSR line serviced by the new (sucky) Amtrak station, and use Union Station as a hub for a regional line (like RER in France).
An aside: It blows my mind what kind of engineering Europe has put behind maintaining and expanding mass transit. I remember taking a Trenitalia line from Reggio di Calabria to Messina Sicily and the train broke apart and boarded a ferry which then docked in Messina, re-aligned with the tracks, and unfolded in Sicily. During the ferry ride you could leave the train (which was in the hold of the ferry) come topside, and smoke cigs while taking in the views of the Med. I was too ignorant then to marvel at the infrastructure, manpower, and engineering work that I was experiencing but in hindsight now realize how cool that was. The United States has the funding and engineering know-how to dwarf just about every other country when it comes to mass transit design. It requires a paradigm shift that I hope happens in the next decade.
Mass Transit rant over.
Possibly turning Union Station into a water park?
link: http://www.wholou.net/2012/03/04/summit ... ater-park/
link: http://www.wholou.net/2012/03/04/summit ... ater-park/
Any idea where this would actually go? Would it be where the parking lots are or would this replace the mall indoors?
Interesting....goat314 wrote:Possibly turning Union Station into a water park?
link: http://www.wholou.net/2012/03/04/summit ... ater-park/
I dont know, but lets hope that any new plan would be more mixed use in scope and eliminate some of that surface parking. Hopefully something can be done in coordination with Paul Mckee and a new 22nd st. interchange. God that area of the city is so damn ugly.pat wrote:Any idea where this would actually go? Would it be where the parking lots are or would this replace the mall indoors?
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21st street will be redone - who knows if that's part of the water park idea, but a water park would likely mean more surface parking
Not a great use if it's entirely outdoors. STL isn't very 'water park friendly' from Nov - March. Uses in the area need to be year round generators of activity. But if it's partially enclosed, with other activities that are year round - could be a goer.Alex Ihnen wrote:21st street will be redone - who knows if that's part of the water park idea, but a water park would likely mean more surface parking
Possibly like KC's Coco Key (http://www.cocokeykansascity.com/ - located across highway from Truman Sports Complex) or possibly Great Wolf Lodge (http://www.greatwolf.com/ - located in KCK)?
Both of those are smallish indoor water park / hotels that cater to families. With a kiddie area, 4 or 5 slides and maybe an outdoor pool, they wouldn't compete with an outdoor park in summer (Like 6 Flags Hurricane Harbor), but more for "stay-cation-ers" and a gimmick attraction on an existing hotel.
Both of those are smallish indoor water park / hotels that cater to families. With a kiddie area, 4 or 5 slides and maybe an outdoor pool, they wouldn't compete with an outdoor park in summer (Like 6 Flags Hurricane Harbor), but more for "stay-cation-ers" and a gimmick attraction on an existing hotel.
The new lights are up at the Milles fountain in Aloe Plaza. Looks amazing at night, though no real difference when the sun is up........
Seriously, though, the lit fountain at night is worth going to see in its own right, IMO.
Seriously, though, the lit fountain at night is worth going to see in its own right, IMO.
Here's a new article in the PD that gives an update on Union Station: http://goo.gl/t2cCw
Sounds like THF Realty and Lodging Hospitality Management (LHM) are in the final stages of closing a deal to complete a $50 million renovation of the hotel and a separate redo of the mall itself. Though THF is known for their strip malls full of big box stores and chains throughout the sprawling suburbs, they have the potential to really improve Union Station. They certainly know retail. LHM is the company behind the Hilton at the Ballpark and its 360 rooftop bar, as well as the Cheshire renovation at Clayton and Skinker. They also own a variety of other hotels throughout St. Louis. If the deal goes through, it will be interesting to see what these two successful companies can accomplish together.
Steve Smith of The Lawrence Group (Hotel Ignacio, Park Pacific Apartments) was one of the other bidders on this project. Along with Summmit Development, he wanted to do a complete transformation of Union Station by turning it into a massive indoor water park. He reports that if the THF/LHM deal doesn't go through, he and his partners are interested in giving it another shot.
Sounds like THF Realty and Lodging Hospitality Management (LHM) are in the final stages of closing a deal to complete a $50 million renovation of the hotel and a separate redo of the mall itself. Though THF is known for their strip malls full of big box stores and chains throughout the sprawling suburbs, they have the potential to really improve Union Station. They certainly know retail. LHM is the company behind the Hilton at the Ballpark and its 360 rooftop bar, as well as the Cheshire renovation at Clayton and Skinker. They also own a variety of other hotels throughout St. Louis. If the deal goes through, it will be interesting to see what these two successful companies can accomplish together.
Steve Smith of The Lawrence Group (Hotel Ignacio, Park Pacific Apartments) was one of the other bidders on this project. Along with Summmit Development, he wanted to do a complete transformation of Union Station by turning it into a massive indoor water park. He reports that if the THF/LHM deal doesn't go through, he and his partners are interested in giving it another shot.
^ Gotta love those STL today commenters, saying things like "unless you clear the undesirables out of there, don't bother spending the money."
I'd rather it stay damn near empty than to degrade it into water park.
Build a Madame Tussaud's-St. Louis or a Louis Tussard's Waxworks, a Legoland, a premium outlet center, Guinness' Ripley's Believe It or Not-St. Louis, St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame, Beer Museum, a Universal Studios attraction, an IMAX.....anything but a water park.
A water park and an aquarium, in my opinion, are more befitting an area along the Mississippi River.
On another note......Why doesn't St. Louis leadership ever pursue such attractions? Is the region content with the Science Center, zoo and Six Flags?
-Atlanta is a possible site for a Madame Tussard's
-Kansas City just opened a SEA LIFE aquarium
-Baltimore just opened a Ripley's
-Kansas City just opened a Legoland
At one time, Merlin Entertainment had been scouting the Metro East for its second Legoland theme park. The city needs to pursue Merlin Entertainment for attraction options in downtown.
There are tons of possibilities - including Union Station.
Build a Madame Tussaud's-St. Louis or a Louis Tussard's Waxworks, a Legoland, a premium outlet center, Guinness' Ripley's Believe It or Not-St. Louis, St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame, Beer Museum, a Universal Studios attraction, an IMAX.....anything but a water park.
A water park and an aquarium, in my opinion, are more befitting an area along the Mississippi River.
On another note......Why doesn't St. Louis leadership ever pursue such attractions? Is the region content with the Science Center, zoo and Six Flags?
-Atlanta is a possible site for a Madame Tussard's
-Kansas City just opened a SEA LIFE aquarium
-Baltimore just opened a Ripley's
-Kansas City just opened a Legoland
At one time, Merlin Entertainment had been scouting the Metro East for its second Legoland theme park. The city needs to pursue Merlin Entertainment for attraction options in downtown.
There are tons of possibilities - including Union Station.
For what it's worth, I've seen the proposal for the water park and it's pretty cool. It's definitely more than just a water park, it's like a kids entertainment mecca.
The water park would be under the shed, the other areas would be for entertainment, etc.
When I first saw the proposal I thought "A water park, are you kidding?", but then I began to think about the influx of people an urban water park would bring to the area, how these guests would have tons of entertainment options at their doorstep, City Museum, Arch, Peabody, just everything downtown, not to mention all the things Metrolink connects Union Station to, and it became a really exciting option that could bring even more people to downtown.
It may work, it might not, but...I don't know, I think it's an interesting re imagining of Union Station.
The water park would be under the shed, the other areas would be for entertainment, etc.
When I first saw the proposal I thought "A water park, are you kidding?", but then I began to think about the influx of people an urban water park would bring to the area, how these guests would have tons of entertainment options at their doorstep, City Museum, Arch, Peabody, just everything downtown, not to mention all the things Metrolink connects Union Station to, and it became a really exciting option that could bring even more people to downtown.
It may work, it might not, but...I don't know, I think it's an interesting re imagining of Union Station.
I just feel that a renovated retail mall will fail. St. Louis has malls out the ass! We need a mixed use project. A unique regional destination and possible residential and office space or else we will be back at point A in less than 10 years. I even like the rumors of a super Wal-Mart!