KMOX said that Slay was offering a $60,000 + reward for information leading to capture. I didn't see it on his website though. I think we should send these guys to Abu Ghraib if we get them. shoot.gif
There was an existing $65,000 reward put together between the previous developers that suffered fires and the government.
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RBB wrote:A friend who works in construction says the industry rumors are the arson is stemming from a union/scab conflict. I've no idea how legitimate that is, though.
-RBB
According to a police source, that was (and still is) the working theory of the one on South Grand as well.
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is this a union thing? What other motives could these idiots possibly have?
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I think the three motives are...
Anarchists
Union
Pyromaniac
Anarchist graffiti had become prevalent in the South St. Louis neighborhoods prior to the first round of fires.
One of the news stories noted that all of the developments that have been destroyed were using non-union trade workers.
One of the developers after the first fires mentioned something about how these construction sites lend themselves to huge conflagrations and thus would be very appealing to a true pyromaniac, someone who has a psychotic fascination with fire.
Anarchists
Union
Pyromaniac
Anarchist graffiti had become prevalent in the South St. Louis neighborhoods prior to the first round of fires.
One of the news stories noted that all of the developments that have been destroyed were using non-union trade workers.
One of the developers after the first fires mentioned something about how these construction sites lend themselves to huge conflagrations and thus would be very appealing to a true pyromaniac, someone who has a psychotic fascination with fire.
CWEMD1 wrote:The construction site burned down this morning, along with the Arby's site next door.
Drove by today. What a mess! Although I can't help but laugh because every time I see an Arby's it reminds me of the Simpson's episode "Das Bus." While stranded on an island, Bart Simpson's classmate Terri, (who has a twin sister, Sherri), says, "I'm so hungry I could eat at Arby's!"
Wouldn't anarchists prefer non-union workers (not organized, work independent of larger structure) to union workers?
TGE-ATW wrote:Wouldn't anarchists prefer non-union workers (not organized, work independent of larger structure) to union workers?
The problem is that what most people consider anarchists are actually socialists. These "anarchists" complained about the rising property values and lack of "affordable" housing, etc. Sounds like they are communists to me.
Anarchism is extremely complex and has a great many different variances. Affordable housing and gentrification has nothing to do with communism.
dweebe wrote:Why is this sh*t only happening in the city?
I think it could be because of the fourth, as of yet unidentified motive...
"Poor people angry about gentrification" -ism. I doubt they realize what they are doing has anything to do with anarchy and are more driven by jealousy/anger/inferiority/etc...
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I am glad that someone else brought up the issue of fireproofing. St. Louis and other American cities moved away from balloon-frame construction after the large urban fires of the 19th century. Perhaps these arsons will provide similar impetus to upgrade our building codes.
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Since the Salad Bowl and Arby's were businesses, not sites with affordable housing, this new development would hardly classify as true gentrification. However, considering the income levels targeted in these new developments, I too have always wondered if some sort of classism was a motivating factor or not for the perps.
southslider wrote:Since the Salad Bowl and Arby's were businesses, not sites with affordable housing, this new development would hardly classify as true gentrification..
Sites with affordable housing are not usually associated with gentrification.
I just don't know if I can picture an anti-gentrification vigilante running around out there. An ideological vigilante has to be moved to this sort of criminal behavior by a deep belief in what they are doing, and must be willing to risk their freedom and other people's lives based on an idea. If these crimes were ideological statements, I would expect some kind of explanation or justification to be left by the perpetrators. Without this, they are just crimes, and the perpetrators are just criminals. A vigilante type would see himself as different from a common criminal because of his motivations, and would want to make sure his message was clear.
TGE-ATW wrote:southslider wrote:Since the Salad Bowl and Arby's were businesses, not sites with affordable housing, this new development would hardly classify as true gentrification..
Sites with affordable housing are not usually associated with gentrification.
I just don't know if I can picture an anti-gentrification vigilante running around out there. An ideological vigilante has to be moved to this sort of criminal behavior by a deep belief in what they are doing, and must be willing to risk their freedom and other people's lives based on an idea. If these crimes were ideological statements, I would expect some kind of explanation or justification to be left by the perpetrators. Without this, they are just crimes, and the perpetrators are just criminals. A vigilante type would see himself as different from a common criminal because of his motivations, and would want to make sure his message was clear.
Never underestimate the power of dogma, whatever his/her motive is, their days are probably numbered as a free person, someone always talks.
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insurance fraud!
i think its far more likely, that with the eroding real-estate prices, developers/investors are looking for other ways to guarantee a profit from their projects. i can't remember any arsons happening back in the gravy days of the real-estate bubble. since the bottom fell out I can think of 6 high profile ones.
i think its far more likely, that with the eroding real-estate prices, developers/investors are looking for other ways to guarantee a profit from their projects. i can't remember any arsons happening back in the gravy days of the real-estate bubble. since the bottom fell out I can think of 6 high profile ones.
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If these are the same folks who hit the previous projects - it bears wondering why we can't catch them. I mean - seriously - after committing numerous arsons you'd think we'd have a lead. How many murders can one commit before being caught?
if it is a union thing - then why haven't we cracked the case? there are only so many union members - and after four arsons you'd think we'd have some evidence.
this whole thing is bizarre. If it is the same people - then why can't we catch them. Are we realy trying to catch them?
If all of these arsons are separate events - how do we explain that
if it is a union thing - then why haven't we cracked the case? there are only so many union members - and after four arsons you'd think we'd have some evidence.
this whole thing is bizarre. If it is the same people - then why can't we catch them. Are we realy trying to catch them?
If all of these arsons are separate events - how do we explain that
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markofucity wrote:this whole thing is bizarre. If it is the same people - then why can't we catch them. Are we realy trying to catch them?
I know if I had a new project in the city at this stage of framing I'd certainly make sure I made the site hard to access (locked chain link fence) and have some extra security. For many years tool & material theft was a nation-wide issue but you really must secure the entire site these days out of cocerns for fire (obviously) but also someone walking around the site and hurting themselves.
I took the above image on the 3rd of this month. The back of the Arby's is just to the right out of view. I have this image plus a few others at http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/?p=3166
Damn, look at that tinderbox. Anybody with a flame fetish would see that as a tempting opportunity. Plywood and exposed frame............Whoosh! I don't know, I think the most simple solution in this case is probably right. Somebody likes to see big ass fires, and these half-built wooden condo complexes are like pre-fab bonfires. Plenty of fuel, plenty of air-space, plenty of height.
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I hope your right. It would bother me deeply if it came out that this is a Union thing. It would enrage me if it came out that the current administration is avoiding the situation for fear of upsetting union voters.
I'm concerned about what this pattern is going to do to outside investors. At least in this case, the builders and money were from Texas. If this sh*t doesn't get solved, and god forbid it happens again, We are going to get a serious and deserved reputation (if we don't already have one).
markofucity wrote:I hope your right. It would bother me deeply if it came out that this is a Union thing. It would enrage me if it came out that the current administration is avoiding the situation for fear of upsetting union voters.
If it is a union thing, the chances are very slim of anyone being convicted.
Since 1975, the National Institute for Labor Relations Research has collected more than 9,000 reports of union violence. These incidents are recorded and electronically maintained in the Institute’s Violent Event Data File.
...while the Institute has recorded 8,799 incidents of union violence since 1975, only 1,963 arrests and 258 convictions have been found. It is difficult to believe that local news media who covered the violence resulting from a strike would not follow up on any subsequent legal action. Thus, it appears that of the violent incidents recorded in the Institute’s Data File, barely three percent of those incidents have led to an arrest and conviction.
In addition to the powerlessness of local law enforcement, federal authorities are also hamstrung by the U.S. Supreme Court’s infamous Enmons decision. In the 1973 ruling, the High Court held that union officials may destroy property, assault employees, and even murder them, while escaping prosecution under federal extortion laws, so long as such violence is undertaken to secure what the Supreme Court called “legitimate” objectives, such as wage increases. Meanwhile, an increasing number of states have enacted extortion laws exempting union officials from prosecution for the so-called “legitimate” objectives cited in Enmons.
From some of the strikes chronicled here, it is also clear that the actual extent of the violence perpetrated by union militants far exceeds the small number of incidents reported in the Institute’s Data File. In some of the strikes of which the Institute recorded, police and company reports indicate that the actual number of assaults, threats and property damage is tens of times greater than the news reports collected by the Institute.
http://www.nilrr.org/node/54
There was a serial arsonist in the DC area. He started around 40 fires. Usually in occupied buildings. When he was caught, he said that demons made him do it. He was a middled aged man that worked at a fast food restaurant and rented from his sister. His neighbors said he was a nice quiet man and were surprised. The police were baffled for a long time. I believe the FBI got involved.
These fires are making us all angry and we need to vent. And it is interesting to compare notes and try to make some sense of it. But, really, we cannot speculate on a particular person or group of people until there is some kind of evidence. We certainly cannot make accusations or exploit this opportunity to discredit people or organizations that we do not like. From what I can see, we have no evidence at all. I hope the police have a lot more evidence than we have.
These fires are making us all angry and we need to vent. And it is interesting to compare notes and try to make some sense of it. But, really, we cannot speculate on a particular person or group of people until there is some kind of evidence. We certainly cannot make accusations or exploit this opportunity to discredit people or organizations that we do not like. From what I can see, we have no evidence at all. I hope the police have a lot more evidence than we have.
I remember that guy. He burned down a house in my neighborhood when I lived there. Shortly after that happened, I got up one morning and found a can of lighter fluid with a burned rag wrapped around the spout in the parking lot of my apartment building. I called the cops and they came by and just kind of shrugged; didn't even have it fingerprinted. The DC guy was very random from what I remember. He burned everything and anything. I guess that this St. Louis stuff actually fits (what I would assume to be a profile) of a serial arsenist more than DC appeared to. DC might have been using the same MO each time or something though. Speaking of MO's, anybody know what the final report on the S. Grand and LF Square fires said about how they were started? Or do they not release that information when the investigation is ongoing?