urbanSTL

soulardx wrote:

StlAlex wrote: ↑

4:21 PM - Aug 29

soulardx wrote:Man, this thread kinda went off the rails into bonkers town but lotta meat here so to continue to dialogue, some sprawling thoughts.

1)      100% agree with bwcrow1s et all on DT STL beautification. Perhaps the easiest and quickest way to improve DT STL’s vibe.  DT Clayton’s relatively clean look/feel is a big part of it’s superior vibe. My "dense security on every corner" fantasy is super hard to do. This, easy!
 
2)       100% agree with addxb2 in that Clayton is a regional asset. Any true urbanist would but we have many folks in this forum that only seem to appreciate urbanism in the city of STL. I agree with STLCommenter, if DT Clayton didn’t exist, those businesses would indeed be in some office park at Olive and 270, not DT STL. (At the same time, I won’t deny DT Clayton is a big reason that DT STL is in the shape it is. No matter, DT Clayton isn’t going anywhere, so I’m gonna call it an asset.)  T
 
 
3)      Calling Denis Bagdad Bob is racist? GTFO.  How the hell is that racist? It’s a common meme to mock people who deny reality on the ground while undeniable proof to the contrary is right behind them. It was a playful jab because I knew Denis would come into this thread with stats and takes about how DT STL is doing great.
 
Bigger picture, while I do disagree with Denis many times, the disagreements are in this forum where most of us already agree and the differences in opinion are on the margins.  I frequently praised Denis for being the *only* PR person DT STL has.  The dude is singing DT STL's praises daily and I've praised Denis for that PR constantly.

STL and this board are better with Denis’ PR.
 
Keep it up Denis!

Please go downtown a bit before speaking on downtown. It's abundantly clear to anyone who actually lives, works, or goes there on a regularly that the things you have claimed are completely removed from reality.

It's rich of you to go throwing around slurs while you yourself are actually the one doing it.

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Dude, I've been a regular to downtown STL for literally 30 years. 

You can lie all you want but your claims on here are more than enough evidnece that you are not and should just stop talking on it.

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soulardx wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - Aug 29

Man, this thread kinda went off the rails into bonkers town but lotta meat here so to continue to dialogue, some sprawling thoughts.

1)      100% agree with bwcrow1s et all on DT STL beautification. Perhaps the easiest and quickest way to improve DT STL’s vibe.  DT Clayton’s relatively clean look/feel is a big part of it’s superior vibe. My "dense security on every corner" fantasy is super hard to do. This, easy!
 
2)       100% agree with addxb2 in that Clayton is a regional asset. Any true urbanist would but we have many folks in this forum that only seem to appreciate urbanism in the city of STL. I agree with STLCommenter, if DT Clayton didn’t exist, those businesses would indeed be in some office park at Olive and 270, not DT STL. (At the same time, I won’t deny DT Clayton is a big reason that DT STL is in the shape it is. No matter, DT Clayton isn’t going anywhere, so I’m gonna call it an asset.)  T
 
 
3)      Calling Denis Bagdad Bob is racist? GTFO.  How the hell is that racist? It’s a common meme to mock people who deny reality on the ground while undeniable proof to the contrary is right behind them. It was a playful jab because I knew Denis would come into this thread with stats and takes about how DT STL is doing great.
 
Bigger picture, while I do disagree with Denis many times, the disagreements are in this forum where most of us already agree and the differences in opinion are on the margins.  I frequently praised Denis for being the *only* PR person DT STL has.  The dude is singing DT STL's praises daily and I've praised Denis for that PR constantly.

STL and this board are better with Denis’ PR.
 
Keep it up Denis!

Based on my connections, knowledge and being here 24/7, I think my version of downtown is far closer to reality than yours of we need national guard on every corner. 

Cardinals game ended at 4;00pm today again, at 7:45pm there was a wait for Katies, Clydesdale, and Salt and Smoke.  The main hall was packed, Sports and Social busy, Fielders Choice, Condado tacos and the Bullock, also busy and the infield area packed with people playing games.   but i guess if percpetion was different maybe the wait would have been 2 hours? 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:11 AM - Aug 30

soulardx wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - Aug 29

Man, this thread kinda went off the rails into bonkers town but lotta meat here so to continue to dialogue, some sprawling thoughts.

1)      100% agree with bwcrow1s et all on DT STL beautification. Perhaps the easiest and quickest way to improve DT STL’s vibe.  DT Clayton’s relatively clean look/feel is a big part of it’s superior vibe. My "dense security on every corner" fantasy is super hard to do. This, easy!
 
2)       100% agree with addxb2 in that Clayton is a regional asset. Any true urbanist would but we have many folks in this forum that only seem to appreciate urbanism in the city of STL. I agree with STLCommenter, if DT Clayton didn’t exist, those businesses would indeed be in some office park at Olive and 270, not DT STL. (At the same time, I won’t deny DT Clayton is a big reason that DT STL is in the shape it is. No matter, DT Clayton isn’t going anywhere, so I’m gonna call it an asset.)  T
 
 
3)      Calling Denis Bagdad Bob is racist? GTFO.  How the hell is that racist? It’s a common meme to mock people who deny reality on the ground while undeniable proof to the contrary is right behind them. It was a playful jab because I knew Denis would come into this thread with stats and takes about how DT STL is doing great.
 
Bigger picture, while I do disagree with Denis many times, the disagreements are in this forum where most of us already agree and the differences in opinion are on the margins.  I frequently praised Denis for being the *only* PR person DT STL has.  The dude is singing DT STL's praises daily and I've praised Denis for that PR constantly.

STL and this board are better with Denis’ PR.
 
Keep it up Denis!

Based on my connections, knowledge and being here 24/7, I think my version of downtown is far closer to reality than yours of we need national guard on every corner. 

Cardinals game ended at 4;00pm today again, at 7:45pm there was a wait for Katies, Clydesdale, and Salt and Smoke.  The main hall was packed, Sports and Social busy, Fielders Choice, Condado tacos and the Bullock, also busy and the infield area packed with people playing games.   but i guess if percpetion was different maybe the wait would have been 2 hours? 

See, the man is just ***** relentless!  Love it.  I wish *anyone* had my back like Downtown Denis has the back of DT STL.  DD, I find your arguments more persuasive when you sprinkle-in your exercise habits.  "I walk 20K steps/day downtown" stuff.  more of that next time. lol

Bigger picture, the thoughtful back-and-forth from some of the folks here has me softening the desperate times/measures NG approach.  So so so many sections of DT STL are bereft of any life at all (no bums, no workers, no residents, no fent addicts, no people at all), it's overkill.  So, I think I would prefer a super heightened/conspicuous security presence in the core part of downtown you circled a lot.   many many many friendly "cops," walking beats all over.  all warm weather weekends, all events.  other than cost (indeed big), what's the down side?

Downtown just needs someone with a designers eye and a little $5M annual budget. The occasional corner of poor landscaping, dirty windows, bland or sloppy sidewalk level exteriors. Obviously R/X and the garage are larger issues but a little bit of elbow grease elsewhere would boost perceptions.  

This for example should not be happening next to the Amtrak station. The sections along Poplar St and Spruce were almost worse. This is the only walking path to Downtown thanks to Bi-States security at Civic Center.

Made me think of this thread

^THIS is the exact thing that bothers me most when I am Downtown & other places around the City. The pure neglect of BASIC services. Graffiti, cracked curbs & sidewalks, weeds & trees growing in the cracks 10 feet tall. I have been trying to get MODOT to clean up the intersection of 170 & 40 (ramps, overpasses, under the ramps etc. look like absolute sh-t-Understand this is not the City). This may prove that it is just an acceptable mentality in STL & MO. Look at the exits at 40 & McCausland. Look at the gang tags EVERYWHERE on highway bridges, railroad bridges, when driving around downtown. It is an absolute embarrassment. The snails pace that demo is moving on the RX garage, the fire damaged Gateway South buildings, etc. Decay, neglect & indifference are accepted behaviors in our region & nobody says anything about it. I call MODOT regularly to clean up graffiti. As you can see on 44, it is a constant fight. The tags blend in well with the 10 foot tall grass, trash & crumbling infrastructure. When you can't fix the basics, the rest is a pipedream. Until somebody cares, somebody fights hard to fix this, we'll wallow in mediocrity. 

jshank83 wrote: ↑

8:16 PM - Aug 30

Made me think of this thread

The juxtaposition of addxb2's pic and that woman's' TikTok really distills the recent iteration of this convo.  Vibes, man. VIbes.   In large part, absent a big event in DT STL that brings in gobs of people and buzz, DT Clayton 2026 just has superior everyday vibes than DT STL 2026.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/LKW8VMDmnQ

off the beaten path weeds are not the reality.  there is not only a downtown clean team that walks around and sweeps all day but also a contracted landscaping firm that keeps everything from the Arch to 14th 

I usually call the CSB around Dogtown. These concrete medians between lanes frustrate me. The Median at McCausland & Manchester is a prime example. I finally got the City to cut down the 6 foot weeds to Southwest, but they didn't do a great job. I see it all  over the City. Downtown frustrates me with all of the damn graffiti tags. 

What can be done to paint the rail-bridges? Who has jurisdiction over those? Heading 44 to the Poplar & back from IL Poplar to 44, the tags look horrible & plentiful coming into to town. Luckily, the Arch may distract many tourists. Also noticed on the east side, the tags everywhere are such a bad look with the NASCAR event only a few weeks away. 

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

4:10 PM - Aug 31

I usually call the CSB around Dogtown. These concrete medians between lanes frustrate me. The Median at McCausland & Manchester is a prime example. I finally got the City to cut down the 6 foot weeds to Southwest, but they didn't do a great job. I see it all  over the City. Downtown frustrates me with all of the damn graffiti tags. 

What can be done to paint the rail-bridges? Who has jurisdiction over those? Heading 44 to the Poplar & back from IL Poplar to 44, the tags look horrible & plentiful coming into to town. Luckily, the Arch may distract many tourists. Also noticed on the east side, the tags everywhere are such a bad look with the NASCAR event only a few weeks away. 

The railroad bridges are owned by the Terminal Railroad Association and Union Pacific - and getting them comprehensively painted or cleaned is probably a long shot; they are all very old and in various states of being fully rusted with original paint all peeled off. This makes it a lot harder to just repaint them because there is old lead paint to contend with, plus it's difficult and expensive to get new paint to adhere to steel that has been exposed to the elements for so long. There's also the sheer scale of the many miles of elevated bridges to deal with, much of them difficult to access. There's maybe a chance they could be convinced to paint the concrete supports, but the steel viaduct likely will never be touched besides bare minimum maintenance on the track side. You can go back 20 years to 2007 on Google Streetview and see there has never been any vandalism removed from them.
Link to Union Pacific's regional public relations director: https://www.uprr.com/messages/index.cfm ... s=bwjones1 
TRRA seems more difficult to contact...

kg2024 wrote: ↑

8:41 PM - Aug 31

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

4:10 PM - Aug 31

I usually call the CSB around Dogtown. These concrete medians between lanes frustrate me. The Median at McCausland & Manchester is a prime example. I finally got the City to cut down the 6 foot weeds to Southwest, but they didn't do a great job. I see it all  over the City. Downtown frustrates me with all of the damn graffiti tags. 

What can be done to paint the rail-bridges? Who has jurisdiction over those? Heading 44 to the Poplar & back from IL Poplar to 44, the tags look horrible & plentiful coming into to town. Luckily, the Arch may distract many tourists. Also noticed on the east side, the tags everywhere are such a bad look with the NASCAR event only a few weeks away. 

The railroad bridges are owned by the Terminal Railroad Association and Union Pacific - and getting them comprehensively painted or cleaned is probably a long shot; they are all very old and in various states of being fully rusted with original paint all peeled off. This makes it a lot harder to just repaint them because there is old lead paint to contend with, plus it's difficult and expensive to get new paint to adhere to steel that has been exposed to the elements for so long. There's also the sheer scale of the many miles of elevated bridges to deal with, much of them difficult to access. There's maybe a chance they could be convinced to paint the concrete supports, but the steel viaduct likely will never be touched besides bare minimum maintenance on the track side. You can go back 20 years to 2007 on Google Streetview and see there has never been any vandalism removed from them.
Link to Union Pacific's regional public relations director: https://www.uprr.com/messages/index.cfm ... s=bwjones1 
TRRA seems more difficult to contact...

There has to be some way local & State government can put some heat on the TRA & UP to do repairs & beautification work on these bridges (Citing safety concerns). How do we know they are safe? Are they being inspected regularly? Would paint/coatings not be a huge piece of the puzzle in keeping this infrastructure safe? Some of the bridges & trestles are very corroded, especially the ones by Kilroy's south of Busch. Crazy to think that these trains that weigh so many tons are crossing these old,  rusty bridges & trestles. The concrete bridge going over Heege Rd. in Affton (near Tower Tee) says "1920" on it. It is cracked and decrepit looking. I can't imagine that thing is totally safe. I don't even like to drive under it when a train is above. 

If things work out with the Chemical, RX, AT&T, Mark Twain, Millennium, and the timber frame complex by the soccer stadium, I think Downtown has a good chance to reclaim vibes momentum. We also need to see a strategic resurgence of retail. 

Wash Ave is seeing some encouraging projects between the food hall, Coffee Stamp, Hyatt, and the Corey James concepts. The corridor is still feeling pretty far away from feeling healthy, particularly west of Tucker. We have a long way and need to recruit more retail to fill these glaring vacancies. We also need liquor license reform. There have been several concepts on Wash Ave over the past few years that invested their money in opening but were forced to close because the forces in the neighborhood denied them the ability to get a liquor license. 

Another thought: Check out earlier Google Street Views of Wash Ave. While there were obviously far more places open on the street, they all consistently had sidewalk seating. To the point where it would almost be a pain in the ass to walk down the sidewalk (if it wasn't so lovely because of the activity and vibes provided by the sidewalk seating) It felt like a completely different street.

Today there is basically no sidewalk seating. Ever places that used to have it no longer do. The sidewalk feels sterile and empty now. Sidewalk seating should be heavily encouraged along this corridor. 

Another more actionable improvement that can be made that makes a true difference in perception of liveliness and ambiance is trees. You could say a lot of infrastructure is neglected downtown and in the city as a whole, but maintaining and striving for trees to reach full maturity where the real visual and practical benefits happen is severely lacking especially downtown. A big chunk of the Design Downtown plan talks about establishing better practice of installing new tree wells properly to allow for adequate soil and water requirements for trees to actually reach full size without dying or causing issues, as well as creating a more dedicated maintenance and replacement plan. The Downtown chunk of the Rams settlement fund is supposed to go towards fulfilling the proposals in that master plan so hopefully that is carried out in streetscape projects and improvements.

For example, we can see in the 2017 streetscape renovation of Washington Ave that runs between 7th St. and Memorial Dr. that there was more of a focus on the tree wells and we are seeing the results of a full street tree canopy which is really lovely and could naturally stimulate more outdoor seating areas and places where people would like to walk and visit businesses and restaurants. A similar canopy is forming on 7th St. with that recent project. One of the only places you can consistently see human life and activity on a sidewalk is the south side of CityGarden which has an amazing canopy of gingko trees. Compared to the circa 2003 Washington Ave streetscape to the west that is expensive to maintain, as well as most tree wells downtown, which have a constant overturn of planting new sapling trees and then they die or are stunted within months/years because the soil is compacted and they do not receive enough water.

kg2024 wrote: ↑

4:34 PM - 19 days ago

Another more actionable improvement that can be made that makes a true difference in perception of liveliness and ambiance is trees. You could say a lot of infrastructure is neglected downtown and in the city as a whole, but maintaining and striving for trees to reach full maturity where the real visual and practical benefits happen is severely lacking especially downtown. A big chunk of the Design Downtown plan talks about establishing better practice of installing new tree wells properly to allow for adequate soil and water requirements for trees to actually reach full size without dying or causing issues, as well as creating a more dedicated maintenance and replacement plan. The Downtown chunk of the Rams settlement fund is supposed to go towards fulfilling the proposals in that master plan so hopefully that is carried out in streetscape projects and improvements.

For example, we can see in the 2017 streetscape renovation of Washington Ave that runs between 7th St. and Memorial Dr. that there was more of a focus on the tree wells and we are seeing the results of a full street tree canopy which is really lovely and could naturally stimulate more outdoor seating areas and places where people would like to walk and visit businesses and restaurants. A similar canopy is forming on 7th St. with that recent project. One of the only places you can consistently see human life and activity on a sidewalk is the south side of CityGarden which has an amazing canopy of gingko trees. Compared to the circa 2003 Washington Ave streetscape to the west that is expensive to maintain, as well as most tree wells downtown, which have a constant overturn of planting new sapling trees and then they die or are stunted within months/years because the soil is compacted and they do not receive enough water.

While I love this idea, I wonder if it's even possible with the way the city works.  In the CWE, so so so many trees on Euclid (Delmar to Forest Park) have died in recent years, were cut down,  and no replacements in large part. 

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

4:48 AM - 19 days ago

Weren’t most of those from the tornado?  And a lot have been replaced will just take years to mature.

South of McPherson/Pershing there wasn't much tree damage. What they're talking about is for example on South Euclid. And that's kind of my point, Forestry is somewhat good at getting new saplings in the ground if they are requested, but they do not do soil remediation or continue to care for or water the trees and they often choose species that are ornamental and will not grow that large to provide shade. So a very high rate of what was planted in the last few years is dead or dying or is so low growing it will likely never provide any real benefits.

kg2024 wrote: ↑

2:20 PM - 18 days ago

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

4:48 AM - 19 days ago

Weren’t most of those from the tornado?  And a lot have been replaced will just take years to mature.

South of McPherson/Pershing there wasn't much tree damage. What they're talking about is for example on South Euclid. And that's kind of my point, Forestry is somewhat good at getting new saplings in the ground if they are requested, but they do not do soil remediation or continue to care for or water the trees and they often choose species that are ornamental and will not grow that large to provide shade. So a very high rate of what was planted in the last few years is dead or dying or is so low growing it will likely never provide any real benefits.

That is correct.  I'm talking core CWE that wasn't affected by the Tornado. 

Now, I do need to relay that on my walk this morning, I paid more careful attention to the trees and there's 3 main parts that no longer have trees (and happen to be the most "marquee" parts of the CWE).  
1) Euclid/Maryland, mostly the NE corner and N on Euclid. Noble Crown, Brennans, etc
2) the stretch around Whole Foods. Trees were there but died and simply haven't been replaced or were replaced and the new trees are now dead.
3) Euclid & Taylor, mostly the trees around the BBQ Saloon. Dead/dying

I also need to backtrack a bit as I made it seem like its a barren wasteland with no tree cover. That's not true. Still all kinds of trees and there were crews watering many this morning.

So, in sum and to bring it back to DT STL - more appropriate trees in the marquee parts of DT STL that are deeply nurtured. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/GTD8MGgjao

Downtown YMCA is closing according to Reddit.

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StlAlex wrote: ↑

3:20 PM - 18 days ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/s/GTD8MGgjao

Downtown YMCA is closing according to Reddit.

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I think this is clearly a result of COVID-era WFH gutting DT STL employment. 

When I worked at 555 Washington M-F, that was my gym.  I'd go regularly. 

Post-Covid, our DT STL office (now *fully* WFH) moved to the Union Station area and that YMCA was no longer convenient for me 

TBH - kinda surprised its still open period. 

That's a shame. Another huge amenity for downtown lost and another vacancy in the hallow core

Huge loss.  That was a great amenity for downtown.  

That’s a shame. Not surprising though, every time I’ve walked past it there’s like 2 people inside.

I hope there are some plans to keep improving the MX building. It’s great what they’ve done with the Wash Ave side of it, but it feels like the momentum has stalled out. It really needs retail wrapping around all 4 sides of it, so this could be a great opportunity to replace the gym with some better retail and restaurant space.