urbanSTL

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

StlAlex wrote: ↑

11:16 PM - 1 day ago

I took a trip to downtown Clayton because I had to pick up some paperwork at STL County police HQ, parked about a block and a half away, "vibrant business district" is not exactly what I'd call Clayton at all. It feels basically as desolate as downtown, but with somewhat nicer infrastructure. One of the GLARING problems with STL is that neither Clayton or downtown can be a proper downtown to a city of STL's size.

This has been gone over to death on here and it's not very hard to understand, downtown is how it is because our business sector does not care. Downtown STL could be totally fixed within a few years if a handful of big businesses put in the effort, but they won't and do not care. Literally nothing the city can do about it. How did Detroit fix downtown? It had a billionaire and its business sector put in the effort.

I do think the newly repaved/rebuilt roads, traffic infrastructure, and bike infrastructure will make downtown feel much more like a modern city, but these are things every city was doing 10-15 years ago while we sat on our hands.

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So confused here. I thought Alex or whatever his name is hated billionaires. Now he’s envious of a Detroit billionaire’s downtown buy-in. What gives!

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - 1 day ago

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

Respectfully disagree.

We have armed police officers in all those places during every one of those times already. Unfortunately, they're that half-ass City's Finest Security mostly. It's like 1 dude in 1 cruiser "patrolling" 75 square blocks and 50 corners. CWE has a single officer walking Euclid during the summer. better than nothing obviously but super limited.

I think a much much much more visible presence from some sort of safety presence *walking* the blocks would immensely help. $$$$ though.

soulardx wrote: ↑

3:30 PM - 1 day ago

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - 1 day ago

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

Respectfully disagree.

We have armed police officers in all those places during every one of those times already. Unfortunately, they're that half-ass City's Finest Security mostly. It's like 1 dude in 1 cruiser "patrolling" 75 square blocks and 50 corners. CWE has a single officer walking Euclid during the summer. better than nothing obviously but super limited.

I think a much much much more visible presence from some sort of safety presence *walking* the blocks would immensely help. $$$$ though.

Downtown doesn’t have a crime problem though. It just doesn’t. That’s not why it feels empty / desolate. What does spending all that money on extra security presence solve?

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

3:33 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

3:30 PM - 1 day ago

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - 1 day ago

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

Respectfully disagree.

We have armed police officers in all those places during every one of those times already. Unfortunately, they're that half-ass City's Finest Security mostly.  It's like 1 dude in 1 cruiser "patrolling" 75 square blocks and 50 corners. CWE has a single officer walking   Euclid during the summer. better than nothing obviously but super limited.

I think a much much much more visible presence from some sort of safety presence *walking* the blocks would immensely help.  $$$$ though.

Downtown doesn’t have a crime problem though. It just doesn’t. That’s not why it feels empty / desolate. What does spending all that money on extra security presence solve?

Fair enough.  Violent crime, not so much. Disorder, car cloutings during events, open air drug markets, super mentally ill homeless? downtown has it on lock.  Even a much much more visible presence around the sports venues and well into the surrounding parking lots would help improve the "downtown is safe" vibe.

In downtown at least, the sh*t we've been doing for the last few decades (sports stadiums, Arch ground reno, casinos, Kiener plaze reno for the 10th time, etc.) clearly isn't working, so I'd give this a shot.

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - 1 day ago

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

Honestly, one of the first impressions that I got of Downtown was all the police security cam boxes on every lamp post & that already made it feel like I was in some scifi supermax prison.  I was staying at a hotel by the convention center and could see the lights from those going off the whole night too, which made it look like there were police lights flashing 24/7.  Downtown FELT uninviting and like it was on lockdown the whole time and sometimes that perception is what people walk away with even if they dont witness any actual crimes.  It would be like seeing a house with metal bars on every window.  It might protect the house from burglary, but anyone looking at it is going to assume that crime happens enough to warrant such extreme measures and avoid it all together

oakangeles wrote: ↑

4:21 PM - 1 day ago

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

3:17 PM - 1 day ago

Jesus that would not make Downtown feel safe or normal. Oh cool I get to feel like I'm living in a military dictatorship Downtown feels so much better now

.....anyone looking at it is going to assume that crime happens enough to warrant such extreme measures and avoid it all together

Thanks for engaging.  But, this is already the current narrative/vibe on DT STL for a huge huge huge number of people in the metro and surrounding areas.  Many people claim Cards attendance is down so much in part because of DT STL being crime ridden. I don't GAF what the crime stats. Perception is reality.  

Desperate times, desperate measures. 

more more more more more *friendly* police/NG/security *walking beats*

I think police walking beats can be a good thing as it allows community engagement.  I think non armed "safety outreach teams" to help de-escalate situations with the mentally ill etc can be a good thing.  I dont think armed military personnel on every corner would do anything but make that perception worse though.  DC is a unique example because of the amount of big tourist attractions that already exist, and the assumption that there would be extra security around government facilities anyway.  I dont think a big "show of force" kind of security crackdown would do anything other than make the perception that STL is unsafe even worse.  I'm going to Memphis in a few weeks, and when I remembered that the National Guard was still there, it made me consider cancelling the trip altogether.  If the only people I see walking around are armed guards it is not going to aid the perception of safety as much as make it feel like something is deeply wrong and its time to gtfo

oakangeles wrote: ↑

4:52 PM - 1 day ago

I think police walking beats can be a good thing as it allows community engagement.  I think non armed "safety outreach teams" to help de-escalate situations with the mentally ill etc can be a good thing.  I dont think armed military personnel on every corner would do anything but make that perception worse though.  DC is a unique example because of the amount of big tourist attractions that already exist, and the assumption that there would be extra security around government facilities anyway.  I dont think a big "show of force" kind of security crackdown would do anything other than make the perception that STL is unsafe even worse.  I'm going to Memphis in a few weeks, and when I remembered that the National Guard was still there, it made me consider cancelling the trip altogether.  If the only people I see walking around are armed guards it is not going to aid the perception of safety as much as make it feel like something is deeply wrong and its time to gtfo

I appreciate that POV and can understand.

Suppose in my fantasy, I'm not talking 21-year-old NG dudes on tanks on corners, eyes peering down a .50 cal.  

Friendly, uniformed, armed (but not too conspicuously) security that's clearly visible, frequently seen and a deterrent to disorder-type bullsh*t.

Fair enough, I think it's a tough situation because a healthy downtown has a balance of soft authority (people acting right because they feel like other people are watching & want to maintain social norms etc) and hard authority (law enforcement)  
I don't think added security is inherently bad, but when there's already a lack of soft authority from low foot traffic, imo adding more on the other end might tip the scale even worse and just feed into existing preconceived notions bc thats ALL that people would see

soulardx wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

3:33 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

3:30 PM - 1 day ago

Respectfully disagree.

We have armed police officers in all those places during every one of those times already. Unfortunately, they're that half-ass City's Finest Security mostly.  It's like 1 dude in 1 cruiser "patrolling" 75 square blocks and 50 corners. CWE has a single officer walking   Euclid during the summer. better than nothing obviously but super limited.

I think a much much much more visible presence from some sort of safety presence *walking* the blocks would immensely help.  $$$$ though.

Downtown doesn’t have a crime problem though. It just doesn’t. That’s not why it feels empty / desolate. What does spending all that money on extra security presence solve?

Fair enough.  Violent crime, not so much. Disorder, car cloutings during events, open air drug markets, super mentally ill homeless? downtown has it on lock.  Even a much much more visible presence around the sports venues and well into the surrounding parking lots would help improve the "downtown is safe" vibe.

In downtown at least, the sh*t we've been doing for the last few decades (sports stadiums, Arch ground reno, casinos, Kiener plaze reno for the 10th time, etc.) clearly isn't working, so I'd give this a shot.

You clearly do not go downtown very much lmao.

Edit: Attendance is down the the Cardinals because the team doesn't have guys like Molina and Wainwright on it anymore. The Blues average over 90%, City SC still averages sellouts, Busch stadium non-Cards events regularly get 40,000+, and concerts at the Dome regularly get 50,000+. People are more afriad of crossing 8th street to get to the stadium than crime. You are spending way too much time online.

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There is no doubt, perception or reality, many people in the metro refuse or rarely go Downtown based on the news & their negative perception. It is a VERY strong narrative in the region. Again, exaggeration or not, it is there. We've also seen a mass exodus of post-covid office workers, the Airbnd problem that led to parties & shootings all over the news & then the secondary post-post covid exit of businesses, 2 of the major local new stations, State of MO, offices companies like Fleishman-Hillard & Peabody. The hits have kept on coming. I am still bullish on the future of downtown, but there is no doubt, downtown has hit a low point as far as the CBD is concerned. While I know everything I just stated is well-known & obvious, I do not think we can deny that we have a TON of work to do as a region to fix our downtown. It will not help that DT is competing with Clayton & now the future downtown Chesterfield. 

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

9:41 PM - 1 day ago

soulardx wrote:

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

4:29 PM - 1 day ago

Kind of a not great video of Frank the Tank doing his daily walk downtown StL since he was throwing the first pitch and it looks like there’s nobody out besides a guy sleeping on the street outside abandoned Orhpeum Theatre (that the city just lets rot). He talks about how there’s no bustle and it surprises him. I don’t think he is really trying to be mean or anything either, I think it just looks like reality. Makes me sad

His walk videos get a number of views too regularly


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When there isn't a game or event, as of August 2026, I'd argue that downtown Clayton (because it's smaller, has lesser disorder bullsh*t, doesn't have the degrading infrastructure issue, etc) has a superior vibe than downtown STL.  Unless you love old architecture, downtown Clayton just seems nicer.

I take no pleasure in writing that but downtown STL is basically an albatross on the whole region.  Tourist think it represents STL as a whole. so, we get sh*t like Frank's video.  (sad face emoji)

Not sure how anyone could argue against this. Especially during workdays, Clayton feels like a vibrant business district with white collar workers walking around and every national chain you would expect in a midwestern downtown. Meanwhile, Downtown STL feels like a desolate ghost town.

As much as the “Detroit turnaround” is kind of fake, you can’t understate how important a vibrant and thriving downtown is to the perception of a city. The way people talk about Detroit is completely changing now that they have a solid downtown. The hits from people like Frank will just keep on coming until we actually fix downtown.

Clayton isn't even 'vibrant' by a human streetscape metric.  It rolls up the sidewalks after 5pm just like Downtown when there aren't events.  It has some nicer sidewalks and streets, which the City is working on, which I think will really help.  The office vacancy is an issue there too.

Fix the streets, add some flowers, patch the massive productivity and perception holes we have in the way of A FEW vacant albatross buildings, and the problem solves itself when the media stops getting in the way of trying to perpetuate a false narrative.

And yes, add in the business community actually doing their part in owning Downtown St. Louis, and you have a winning combination.  I think making it at least on a surface level as attractive as what you're saying makes Clayton (decent infrastructure at a bare minimum), takes Downtown to the moon once you factor in all of the other strengths we already have there (and as you can imagine, don't really celebrate even though they're what makes Downtown the cultural destination it is, rather than Clayton).

We can blame Clayton as much as we want however the city has given these businesses a reason to vacate downtown…I think we can all point out the obvious reasons in what’s likely holding downtown back. The city hasn’t done a whole lot of updating everyday infrastructure until recent and that’s likely not enough..There needs to be a real focus on extensive beautification.. We’re also likely far behind other cities when it comes to new amenities doesn’t help with so many uninspiring parking garages & a plethora of derelict garages that makes downtown look dangerous & feel abandoned.. I love downtown & I love being downtown but there’s no denying our downtown is embarrassing to be in at this moment in my life…I really think not just the city but the entire region lacks a truly inspiring vision. We’ve have so many possibilities to grow but that’s something the region as a whole is unwilling to do… City leaders need a bold vision for downtown & stick with it… Create a future that makes St.Louis a top city in all of the country & the best city in the Midwest. We have the scenery we have the amenities we have the monument we have the foundation all the ingredients are there we just need the push the ambition & the spark. Also St.Louis likes to deviate & abandon from its original ideas & plans then everything stalls. My hope in 5-6 years that we’ll have a downtown that’s bustling with AT&T railway exchange millennium maybe ballpark village 3 314 timber high rise a full cap over 44 maybe some new surprise apartment construction maybe a few new office construction a revamp Washington ave updated or new keiner garages a thriving Leclede’s Landing maybe during that time pull in a few world HQ more street trees etc. Everything positive is possible just like everything negative is possible…..


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Clayton is an incredible asset at this point and if the region could find a way to grow 2% annually, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Clayton is not holding back Downtown anymore than the CWE/Cortex are.

I travel for biz. Atlanta, Charlotte, NYC, Boston, Denver. Downtown STL is in the Mesozoic era. Light years behind. It’s a failure in spite of the many hundreds of millions invested. Hmmm

Maybe, just maybe, it’s leadership?

PlatinumBlues wrote:We can blame Clayton as much as we want however the city has given these businesses a reason to vacate downtown…I think we can all point out the obvious reasons in what’s likely holding downtown back. The city hasn’t done a whole lot of updating everyday infrastructure until recent and that’s likely not enough..There needs to be a real focus on extensive beautification.. We’re also likely far behind other cities when it comes to new amenities doesn’t help with so many uninspiring parking garages & a plethora of derelict garages that makes downtown look dangerous & feel abandoned.. I love downtown & I love being downtown but there’s no denying our downtown is embarrassing to be in at this moment in my life…I really think not just the city but the entire region lacks a truly inspiring vision. We’ve have so many possibilities to grow but that’s something the region as a whole is unwilling to do… City leaders need a bold vision for downtown & stick with it… Create a future that makes St.Louis a top city in all of the country & the best city in the Midwest. We have the scenery we have the amenities we have the monument we have the foundation all the ingredients are there we just need the push the ambition & the spark. Also St.Louis likes to deviate & abandon from its original ideas & plans then everything stalls. My hope in 5-6 years that we’ll have a downtown that’s bustling with AT&T railway exchange millennium maybe ballpark village 3 314 timber high rise a full cap over 44 maybe some new surprise apartment construction maybe a few new office construction a revamp Washington ave updated or new keiner garages a thriving Leclede’s Landing maybe during that time pull in a few world HQ more street trees etc. Everything positive is possible just like everything negative is possible…..


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The city-county divide is the primary subject to blame, Clayton is just the biggest benefactor and largest drain on business that would be downtown in every other mid-sized city.

And there is absolutely no dount that 16 years of Francis Slay did irreparable harm to downtown and the city as a whole.

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StlAlex wrote:

addxb2 wrote:Clayton is an incredible asset at this point and if the region could find a way to grow 2% annually, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Clayton is not holding back Downtown anymore than the CWE/Cortex are.

Clayton is the single biggest leech on downtown. Countless businesses representing probably millions of square feet are located in Clayton because of the city-county divide. Calling it an asset is amazingly tone deaf way to describe Clayton's relationship with St. Louis, but I don't really expect anything less at this point.

Would it ever cross your mind that part of the reason we aren't growing and our national reputation is garbage is because our "business center" is a completely culturally devoid oversized office park that does not resemble a major city downtown in any way beyond tall buildings? And here you're calling it an asset? Insane.

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If Clayton didn’t exist, those businesses would still not be downtown. They would be in office parks along 270 or in Chesterfield.

The city-county divide is not really what’s holding St. Louis back either. St. Louis managed to grow for over 70 years from the Great Divorce in 1876 until it reached its peak population in 1950.

One thing that is holding St. Louis back, however, is residents that blame all of these abstract reasons for the city’s decline instead of the leadership and policies of the city over the last 70 years.

STLcommenter wrote:

StlAlex wrote:

addxb2 wrote:Clayton is an incredible asset at this point and if the region could find a way to grow 2% annually, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Clayton is not holding back Downtown anymore than the CWE/Cortex are.

Clayton is the single biggest leech on downtown. Countless businesses representing probably millions of square feet are located in Clayton because of the city-county divide. Calling it an asset is amazingly tone deaf way to describe Clayton's relationship with St. Louis, but I don't really expect anything less at this point.

Would it ever cross your mind that part of the reason we aren't growing and our national reputation is garbage is because our "business center" is a completely culturally devoid oversized office park that does not resemble a major city downtown in any way beyond tall buildings? And here you're calling it an asset? Insane.

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If Clayton didn’t exist, those businesses would still not be downtown. They would be in office parks along 270 or in Chesterfield.

The city-county divide is not really what’s holding St. Louis back either. St. Louis managed to grow for over 70 years from the Great Divorce in 1876 until it reached its peak population in 1950.

One thing that is holding St. Louis back, however, is residents that blame all of these abstract reasons for the city’s decline instead of the leadership and policies of the city over the last 70 years.

POV: Someone who has no idea what theyre talking about, but is here talking.

It's clear there's immense amounts of ignorance around the affects of the city-county divide, so much it even penetrates into this forum. Cannot even believe this is a real comment that was made on this forum that is supposedly "not Reddit."

Beyond insane to suggest the city-county divide is "abstract." Like what in the world. You are clearly not ready for the truth on school districts either, that will just blow your mind.

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