It will be worth it if Missouri replaces income for sales tax in August. Can’t imagine a happier group of stakeholders than Wyandotte and Johnson County Kansas. Would be absolutely devastating to KCMO restaurants and retail. Illinois would receive a fraction of the benefit Kansas will receive.
For 3 billion that’s very disappointing it’s basically arrowhead in Kansas but hey as long as they’re sticking it to St.Louis most on that end of the state prolly don’t care how it looks as long it’s not a St.Louis stadium rendering….
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The stadium plans look like Arrowhead with a roof surrounded by Kansas farmland made parking lots. 3 billion. Wow.
Sad in this country we spend 3 billion to build a stadium for a game that plays 8 to 9 games a year in it, and we can't seem to build any infrastructure.
KCs airport was half of this cost to build.
An LRT line from downtown KC to the airport would be around 2 billion.
This country's priorities are just f***ed up.
Sad in this country we spend 3 billion to build a stadium for a game that plays 8 to 9 games a year in it, and we can't seem to build any infrastructure.
KCs airport was half of this cost to build.
An LRT line from downtown KC to the airport would be around 2 billion.
This country's priorities are just f***ed up.
Idk this stadium fits KC. It's completely generic and uninspired, could be anywhere, and it's like a thousands miles from the city. It just fits.
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It’s as close as you can get to replicating arrowhead under modern building codesStlAlex wrote:Idk this stadium fits KC. It's completely generic and uninspired, could be anywhere, and it's like a thousands miles from the city. It just fits.
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Looks like the entirety of Crown Center might be reimagined save for a few buildings. Even Crown Center “mall” looks like it’s going away in this early site plan. A public meeting on the Crown Center ballpark ended early on Monday after opponents shouted at the Royals and Populous demanding they get to vote on the project, saying they already voted down a downtown stadium, and refusing to listen to anything the development team was saying. Will be interesting to see if a deal can be reached before a public vote is held.
I do think the downtown stadium, or at least near downtown, plan is a huge net positive for the city and all the development will probably be better than the current mall.
With that being said, I feel like a public vote should probably be held since they want to re-direct tax revenues to help fianance the construction. If it is as popular as supporters make it out to be, there should be no reason not to hold a vote.
At the end of the day, I have to pay for my house and everything to do with it, as does everyone else. 99% of businesses have to pay to run their business and everything related to it. It is pretty asinine that it's just a given that the public should just help wealthy for-profit capital owners build things fundamentally designed to boost the capital owners' revenue, such as a new baseball stadium and adjecent district, without public approval of such use of tax dollars.
In KC's case, it's even more of a question because the previous stadium tax was shot down massively.
I would probably vote yes since I think this will be a huge boon for the city and downtown. I myself will actually take the train to see Cards-Royals games because it will be far easier to get to. I just do not like how obtuse supporters are being with regards to the refusal to facilitate a vote.
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With that being said, I feel like a public vote should probably be held since they want to re-direct tax revenues to help fianance the construction. If it is as popular as supporters make it out to be, there should be no reason not to hold a vote.
At the end of the day, I have to pay for my house and everything to do with it, as does everyone else. 99% of businesses have to pay to run their business and everything related to it. It is pretty asinine that it's just a given that the public should just help wealthy for-profit capital owners build things fundamentally designed to boost the capital owners' revenue, such as a new baseball stadium and adjecent district, without public approval of such use of tax dollars.
In KC's case, it's even more of a question because the previous stadium tax was shot down massively.
I would probably vote yes since I think this will be a huge boon for the city and downtown. I myself will actually take the train to see Cards-Royals games because it will be far easier to get to. I just do not like how obtuse supporters are being with regards to the refusal to facilitate a vote.
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I’m against the vote because I see the voters here disapproving it, not because of the redirection is sales taxes within the development zone, but because of the standard NIMBY argument against anything new. That coalition of people is massive compared to the opposition to sales tax redirections within Crown Center. Could it hypothetically pass a public vote if a good campaign was run? Sure. But the number of NIMBYs that exist in KC far exceeds anything seen in St. Louis by a mile and it grows worse yearly.
You even have Columbus Park people opposed to further development on the riverfront and a new pedestrian connection/reworking of the Guinotte intersection with the railroad because of “traffic and parking concerns in their neighborhood” despite the fact that even with those improvements, Columbus Park is in an awkward position to get to from the riverfront. It’s a very off mindset. As certain areas of urban KC attempt to become more urban, super opposition rises. These aren’t serious people and yet they want to vote on a Crown Center stadium because they either don’t want the K to go vacant (which it will one way or another) or don't want anything more urban to be built because of traffic and parking.
You even have Columbus Park people opposed to further development on the riverfront and a new pedestrian connection/reworking of the Guinotte intersection with the railroad because of “traffic and parking concerns in their neighborhood” despite the fact that even with those improvements, Columbus Park is in an awkward position to get to from the riverfront. It’s a very off mindset. As certain areas of urban KC attempt to become more urban, super opposition rises. These aren’t serious people and yet they want to vote on a Crown Center stadium because they either don’t want the K to go vacant (which it will one way or another) or don't want anything more urban to be built because of traffic and parking.
Is kcrag dead? I rarely get on there but I was curious about the new royals stadium so I was going to go look it up on there but I wasn't able to get on today or a couple days ago when I tried.
Worker for me just now. It’s operated by a non-local on legacy software without any ad revenue. Tends to have a monthly outage and a growing list of blocked countries.jshank83 wrote:Is kcrag dead? I rarely get on there but I was curious about the new royals stadium so I was going to go look it up on there but I wasn't able to get on today or a couple days ago when I tried.
I keep gettingldai_phs wrote: ↑4:33 AM - Aug 13Worker for me just now. It’s operated by a non-local on legacy software without any ad revenue. Tends to have a monthly outage and a growing list of blocked countries.jshank83 wrote:Is kcrag dead? I rarely get on there but I was curious about the new royals stadium so I was going to go look it up on there but I wasn't able to get on today or a couple days ago when I tried.
This site can’t be reached
kcrag.com refused to connect.
or server can't be reached on a different browser
EDIT: I fired up my VPN and put myself in chicago and now it works..
Are you overseas right now? I have no issues logging in from STL or anywhere else domestic but there are numerous countries that have been blocked due to cyber attacks.jshank83 wrote:I keep gettingldai_phs wrote: ↑4:33 AM - Aug 13Worker for me just now. It’s operated by a non-local on legacy software without any ad revenue. Tends to have a monthly outage and a growing list of blocked countries.jshank83 wrote:Is kcrag dead? I rarely get on there but I was curious about the new royals stadium so I was going to go look it up on there but I wasn't able to get on today or a couple days ago when I tried.
This site can’t be reached
kcrag.com refused to connect.
or server can't be reached on a different browser
EDIT: I fired up my VPN and put myself in chicago and now it works..
No, I am in California at the moment. Last time when I tried and couldn't get in I am pretty sure I was in St. Louis, but I am not 100% sure. Might have been on the plane on the way outldai_phs wrote: ↑5:10 AM - Aug 13Are you overseas right now? I have no issues logging in from STL or anywhere else domestic but there are numerous countries that have been blocked due to cyber attacks.jshank83 wrote:I keep gettingldai_phs wrote: ↑4:33 AM - Aug 13Worker for me just now. It’s operated by a non-local on legacy software without any ad revenue. Tends to have a monthly outage and a growing list of blocked countries.
This site can’t be reached
kcrag.com refused to connect.
or server can't be reached on a different browser
EDIT: I fired up my VPN and put myself in chicago and now it works..
Update on the Crown Center Royals Stadium...
KCMO City Council approved the rezoning/MPD for Crown Center on Thursday alongside the $600 Million incentive package for the stadium development in a 11-2 vote. The only component left is the approval of the TIF district which is up before the TIF Commission and the Council in the next few weeks. The stadium is planned to have about 35,000 seats (or about 3000 less than Kauffman and about 10,000 less than Busch).
The team released two new images of the stadium earlier this week showing that plans are evolving from the conceptual renderings everyone's seen so far.
This is apparently the second oldest design option. This view is roughly from behind the Crown Center ice rink. Per owner John Sherman and Populous designers stadium is designed to open up onto Crown Center Square so that game day activity can "bleed" into the neighborhood.
And this view is from inside of the stadium itself and is the most recent design.
A project timeline was discussed this week, but is subject to change. Hallmark employees have been notified that they'll be vacating their spaces by the end of then year and some surplus office equipment is being sold. Hallmark will move into multiple spaces owned by them across Crown Center while their current HQ and distribution warehouse is vacated and demolished. They'll eventually move into a new headquarters building, likely to be constructed along Grand next to the new stadium as part of the initial phase of the Crown Center redevelopment.
The public still wishes to vote on the subject, but the development agreement being agreed upon apparently removes that option from their hands (they can still vote, but the vote wouldn't matter). Although opponents are saying that they believe they can have a court stop the city’s legislation until a public vote can be held.
So while most of the deal is practically sealed, and the Royals/Hallmark likely enter into more advanced design and planning discussions, this whole thing is likely going to be the major issue of the next Mayor and Council election in the spring.
KCMO City Council approved the rezoning/MPD for Crown Center on Thursday alongside the $600 Million incentive package for the stadium development in a 11-2 vote. The only component left is the approval of the TIF district which is up before the TIF Commission and the Council in the next few weeks. The stadium is planned to have about 35,000 seats (or about 3000 less than Kauffman and about 10,000 less than Busch).
The team released two new images of the stadium earlier this week showing that plans are evolving from the conceptual renderings everyone's seen so far.
This is apparently the second oldest design option. This view is roughly from behind the Crown Center ice rink. Per owner John Sherman and Populous designers stadium is designed to open up onto Crown Center Square so that game day activity can "bleed" into the neighborhood.
And this view is from inside of the stadium itself and is the most recent design.
A project timeline was discussed this week, but is subject to change. Hallmark employees have been notified that they'll be vacating their spaces by the end of then year and some surplus office equipment is being sold. Hallmark will move into multiple spaces owned by them across Crown Center while their current HQ and distribution warehouse is vacated and demolished. They'll eventually move into a new headquarters building, likely to be constructed along Grand next to the new stadium as part of the initial phase of the Crown Center redevelopment.
- January 2027: Demolition/excavation permit for the present-day Hallmark headquarters.
- March 2027: Foundations permit.
- May 2027: Formal groundbreaking.
- February 2028: Building permits.
- December 2029: Substantial completion.
- March 2030: Royals home opener.
The public still wishes to vote on the subject, but the development agreement being agreed upon apparently removes that option from their hands (they can still vote, but the vote wouldn't matter). Although opponents are saying that they believe they can have a court stop the city’s legislation until a public vote can be held.
So while most of the deal is practically sealed, and the Royals/Hallmark likely enter into more advanced design and planning discussions, this whole thing is likely going to be the major issue of the next Mayor and Council election in the spring.
last I saw the proposal had about $500M in *state* tax $$ subsidy. STL MSA being 40% of the state's GDP means that STL will be sending $200M to KC.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑6:25 AM - Aug 21Update on the Crown Center Royals Stadium...
KCMO City Council approved the rezoning/MPD for Crown Center on Thursday alongside the $600 Million incentive package for the stadium development in a 11-2 vote. The only component left is the approval of the TIF district which is up before the TIF Commission and the Council in the next few weeks. The stadium is planned to have about 35,000 seats (or about 3000 less than Kauffman and about 10,000 less than Busch).
The team released two new images of the stadium earlier this week showing that plans are evolving from the conceptual renderings everyone's seen so far.
This is apparently the second oldest design option. This view is roughly from behind the Crown Center ice rink. Per owner John Sherman and Populous designers stadium is designed to open up onto Crown Center Square so that game day activity can "bleed" into the neighborhood.
Royals1.png
And this view is from inside of the stadium itself and is the most recent design.
Royals2.png
A project timeline was discussed this week, but is subject to change. Hallmark employees have been notified that they'll be vacating their spaces by the end of then year and some surplus office equipment is being sold. Hallmark will move into multiple spaces owned by them across Crown Center while their current HQ and distribution warehouse is vacated and demolished. They'll eventually move into a new headquarters building, likely to be constructed along Grand next to the new stadium as part of the initial phase of the Crown Center redevelopment.The public meetings this week brought fireworks though. A man was escorted out of a City Council committee meeting on Tuesday and that stirred up some controversy. San Francisco Tower condo owners at Crown Center are threatening to sue the City and Royals over objections to being neighbors to the stadium and redeveloped district (they claim the team and City haven't been open enough but the team agreed to parking access, lighting studies, and more to condo association members).
- January 2027: Demolition/excavation permit for the present-day Hallmark headquarters.
- March 2027: Foundations permit.
- May 2027: Formal groundbreaking.
- February 2028: Building permits.
- December 2029: Substantial completion.
- March 2030: Royals home opener.
The public still wishes to vote on the subject, but the development agreement being agreed upon apparently removes that option from their hands (they can still vote, but the vote wouldn't matter). Although opponents are saying that they believe they can have a court stop the city’s legislation until a public vote can be held.
So while most of the deal is practically sealed, and the Royals/Hallmark likely enter into more advanced design and planning discussions, this whole thing is likely going to be the major issue of the next Mayor and Council election in the spring.
When DeWitt comes asking for $$ for B3, I expect KC to reciprocate with zero protesting.
STL is “sending” $0 to KC for their stadium project. It’s essentially a City TIF + inverse State TIF.soulardx wrote:last I saw the proposal had about $500M in *state* tax $$ subsidy. STL MSA being 40% of the state's GDP means that STL will be sending $200M to KC.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑6:25 AM - Aug 21Update on the Crown Center Royals Stadium...
KCMO City Council approved the rezoning/MPD for Crown Center on Thursday alongside the $600 Million incentive package for the stadium development in a 11-2 vote. The only component left is the approval of the TIF district which is up before the TIF Commission and the Council in the next few weeks. The stadium is planned to have about 35,000 seats (or about 3000 less than Kauffman and about 10,000 less than Busch).
The team released two new images of the stadium earlier this week showing that plans are evolving from the conceptual renderings everyone's seen so far.
This is apparently the second oldest design option. This view is roughly from behind the Crown Center ice rink. Per owner John Sherman and Populous designers stadium is designed to open up onto Crown Center Square so that game day activity can "bleed" into the neighborhood.
Royals1.png
And this view is from inside of the stadium itself and is the most recent design.
Royals2.png
A project timeline was discussed this week, but is subject to change. Hallmark employees have been notified that they'll be vacating their spaces by the end of then year and some surplus office equipment is being sold. Hallmark will move into multiple spaces owned by them across Crown Center while their current HQ and distribution warehouse is vacated and demolished. They'll eventually move into a new headquarters building, likely to be constructed along Grand next to the new stadium as part of the initial phase of the Crown Center redevelopment.The public meetings this week brought fireworks though. A man was escorted out of a City Council committee meeting on Tuesday and that stirred up some controversy. San Francisco Tower condo owners at Crown Center are threatening to sue the City and Royals over objections to being neighbors to the stadium and redeveloped district (they claim the team and City haven't been open enough but the team agreed to parking access, lighting studies, and more to condo association members).
- January 2027: Demolition/excavation permit for the present-day Hallmark headquarters.
- March 2027: Foundations permit.
- May 2027: Formal groundbreaking.
- February 2028: Building permits.
- December 2029: Substantial completion.
- March 2030: Royals home opener.
The public still wishes to vote on the subject, but the development agreement being agreed upon apparently removes that option from their hands (they can still vote, but the vote wouldn't matter). Although opponents are saying that they believe they can have a court stop the city’s legislation until a public vote can be held.
So while most of the deal is practically sealed, and the Royals/Hallmark likely enter into more advanced design and planning discussions, this whole thing is likely going to be the major issue of the next Mayor and Council election in the spring.
When DeWitt comes asking for $$ for B3, I expect KC to reciprocate with zero protesting.
The State “subsidy” is a redirection of state tax revenues generated by the stadium today, pre redevelopment. So If the stadium generates let’s say $10 million a year in taxes today and a new stadium generates $25 million, the Royals will get to keep the $10 million generated today and the State will keep the $15 million of incremental tax revenues. Given the sorry state of Kauffman Stadium I suspect the new stadium will have dramatically higher tax revenues once it opens.
The state program was designed such that any teams across the state can make use of it (ie the Cardinals). As long as the Cardinals apply (I think they have 9 more years before it sunsets), state EDC staff approval is all that’s needed. I think there is a minimum seat requirement of 30,000 seats.
thanks for sharing. I've always appreciated your dialogue. ldai_phs. So, I have yet to read a full/good analysis on that state program. and I've looked!ldai_phs wrote: ↑3:52 PM - Aug 21STL is “sending” $0 to KC for their stadium project. It’s essentially a City TIF + inverse State TIF.soulardx wrote:last I saw the proposal had about $500M in *state* tax $$ subsidy. STL MSA being 40% of the state's GDP means that STL will be sending $200M to KC.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑6:25 AM - Aug 21Update on the Crown Center Royals Stadium...
KCMO City Council approved the rezoning/MPD for Crown Center on Thursday alongside the $600 Million incentive package for the stadium development in a 11-2 vote. The only component left is the approval of the TIF district which is up before the TIF Commission and the Council in the next few weeks. The stadium is planned to have about 35,000 seats (or about 3000 less than Kauffman and about 10,000 less than Busch).
The team released two new images of the stadium earlier this week showing that plans are evolving from the conceptual renderings everyone's seen so far.
This is apparently the second oldest design option. This view is roughly from behind the Crown Center ice rink. Per owner John Sherman and Populous designers stadium is designed to open up onto Crown Center Square so that game day activity can "bleed" into the neighborhood.
Royals1.png
And this view is from inside of the stadium itself and is the most recent design.
Royals2.png
A project timeline was discussed this week, but is subject to change. Hallmark employees have been notified that they'll be vacating their spaces by the end of then year and some surplus office equipment is being sold. Hallmark will move into multiple spaces owned by them across Crown Center while their current HQ and distribution warehouse is vacated and demolished. They'll eventually move into a new headquarters building, likely to be constructed along Grand next to the new stadium as part of the initial phase of the Crown Center redevelopment.The public meetings this week brought fireworks though. A man was escorted out of a City Council committee meeting on Tuesday and that stirred up some controversy. San Francisco Tower condo owners at Crown Center are threatening to sue the City and Royals over objections to being neighbors to the stadium and redeveloped district (they claim the team and City haven't been open enough but the team agreed to parking access, lighting studies, and more to condo association members).
- January 2027: Demolition/excavation permit for the present-day Hallmark headquarters.
- March 2027: Foundations permit.
- May 2027: Formal groundbreaking.
- February 2028: Building permits.
- December 2029: Substantial completion.
- March 2030: Royals home opener.
The public still wishes to vote on the subject, but the development agreement being agreed upon apparently removes that option from their hands (they can still vote, but the vote wouldn't matter). Although opponents are saying that they believe they can have a court stop the city’s legislation until a public vote can be held.
So while most of the deal is practically sealed, and the Royals/Hallmark likely enter into more advanced design and planning discussions, this whole thing is likely going to be the major issue of the next Mayor and Council election in the spring.
When DeWitt comes asking for $$ for B3, I expect KC to reciprocate with zero protesting.
The State “subsidy” is a redirection of state tax revenues generated by the stadium today, pre redevelopment. So If the stadium generates let’s say $10 million a year in taxes today and a new stadium generates $25 million, the Royals will get to keep the $10 million generated today and the State will keep the $15 million of incremental tax revenues. Given the sorry state of Kauffman Stadium I suspect the new stadium will have dramatically higher tax revenues once it opens.
The state program was designed such that any teams across the state can make use of it (ie the Cardinals). As long as the Cardinals apply (I think they have 9 more years before it sunsets), state EDC staff approval is all that’s needed. I think there is a minimum seat requirement of 30,000 seats.
soulardx wrote:thanks for sharing. I have yet to read a full/good analysis on that state program. and I've looked!ldai_phs wrote: ↑3:52 PM - Aug 21STL is “sending” $0 to KC for their stadium project. It’s essentially a City TIF + inverse State TIF.soulardx wrote: last I saw the proposal had about $500M in *state* tax $$ subsidy. STL MSA being 40% of the state's GDP means that STL will be sending $200M to KC.
When DeWitt comes asking for $$ for B3, I expect KC to reciprocate with zero protesting.
The State “subsidy” is a redirection of state tax revenues generated by the stadium today, pre redevelopment. So If the stadium generates let’s say $10 million a year in taxes today and a new stadium generates $25 million, the Royals will get to keep the $10 million generated today and the State will keep the $15 million of incremental tax revenues. Given the sorry state of Kauffman Stadium I suspect the new stadium will have dramatically higher tax revenues once it opens.
The state program was designed such that any teams across the state can make use of it (ie the Cardinals). As long as the Cardinals apply (I think they have 9 more years before it sunsets), state EDC staff approval is all that’s needed. I think there is a minimum seat requirement of 30,000 seats.
Legislation: https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection. ... &bid=57139
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LOL.ldai_phs wrote: ↑4:00 PM - Aug 21soulardx wrote:thanks for sharing. I have yet to read a full/good analysis on that state program. and I've looked!ldai_phs wrote: ↑3:52 PM - Aug 21STL is “sending” $0 to KC for their stadium project. It’s essentially a City TIF + inverse State TIF.
The State “subsidy” is a redirection of state tax revenues generated by the stadium today, pre redevelopment. So If the stadium generates let’s say $10 million a year in taxes today and a new stadium generates $25 million, the Royals will get to keep the $10 million generated today and the State will keep the $15 million of incremental tax revenues. Given the sorry state of Kauffman Stadium I suspect the new stadium will have dramatically higher tax revenues once it opens.
The state program was designed such that any teams across the state can make use of it (ie the Cardinals). As long as the Cardinals apply (I think they have 9 more years before it sunsets), state EDC staff approval is all that’s needed. I think there is a minimum seat requirement of 30,000 seats.
Legislation: https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection. ... &bid=57139
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Thank you!
but, I meant third-party analysis from someone other than the bills sponsor or a group that isn't super reflexively anti-tax.
Whats Country Club Plaza's equivalent in STL? The Galleria?
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Really hard to say. As a retail mix sure, as a neighborhood maybe Clayton or CWE,StlAlex wrote:Whats Country Club Plaza's equivalent in STL? The Galleria?
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St. Louis has the 35 year old Riverport Amphitheater.
Kansas City Missouri has a brand new amphitheater that just opened a few weeks ago and now a second one is being proposed for the Kansas side.
Kansas City Missouri has a brand new amphitheater that just opened a few weeks ago and now a second one is being proposed for the Kansas side.
KC has a 30+ year old amphitheater in Kansas that’s gone to 0 now that the new Live Nation developed, Morton Salt branded venue has opened.dweebe wrote:St. Louis has the 35 year old Riverport Amphitheater.
Kansas City Missouri has a brand new amphitheater that just opened a few weeks ago and now a second one is being proposed for the Kansas side.
This KS project is a response and honestly feels questionable based on a quick search of the team behind it.