urbanSTL

jacob_rb_15 wrote: ↑

4:09 PM - 4 days ago

Our local media is a joke, they got the wrong parking garages on Fox 2. They even interviewed the people about the wrong garages.
New owners to turn St. Louis parking garages into art hubs

Wow, that's embarrassing.

Not to mention the typos and poor punctuation.

Crime in Downtown and Downtown West has fallen sharply over the past five years. 

Through the first seven months of the year, total NIBRS incidents across the two neighborhoods dropped from 4,262 in 2022 to 2,388 in 2026 — a 44% decline. Property crime, the largest category, fell 57.5%. Crimes against persons are down 21.8%. Robbery is down 56.8%, theft from vehicles is down 71.8%, vehicle theft is down 53%, and vandalism is down 66.5%. 

The obvious objection is that crime falls when there’s no one left downtown to be a victim. The spending data says otherwise. Taxable sales in the downtown district have grown steadily across the same period. Through June, sales rose from $816.5 million in 2022 to $890.2 million in 2025 — up $73.7 million, or 9%. The gains came in every year: +7.5% in 2023, +0.3% in 2024, +1.1% in 2025. That’s a district holding its commercial base and adding to it, not one being abandoned. 

The Arch attendance has grown since 2022 and Union Stations as well Worth noting that this growth came even as Cardinals attendance fell off considerably in 2024 and 2025. Downtown’s sales base absorbed that and still grew — which says the day-to-day economy here, the residents and workers and restaurants and events that aren’t tied to the baseball calendar, is carrying more weight than it used to. Cardinals fans probably spend about $28m less in 2024 and $75m less in 2025 vs 2022-2023 3.3m attendance years. Crime didn’t fall because downtown emptied out. It fell while downtown kept doing business. 

Sources: SLMPD monthly neighborhood crime data, Dept of Revenue quarterly taxable sales data and IRMA national parks visitor data

Dude someone already corrected you once and it's been discussed. It was the news about the Keiner Plaza garages.

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

8:30 PM - 3 days ago

Dude someone already corrected you once and it's been discussed. It was the news about the Keiner Plaza garages.

The point being that these are not some of the most talked about downtown buildings.  

STLAPTS wrote:

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

8:30 PM - 3 days ago

Dude someone already corrected you once and it's been discussed. It was the news about the Keiner Plaza garages.

The point being that these are not some of the most talked about downtown buildings.  

They are. We are regularly talking about these buildings on here because they are a complete blight on downtown in their current state. No other city would allow such horrific buildings to front their downtown park like we do.

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Oh, for the love of Creole Christ, are they the Railway Exchange or Bell One Center? No. But we've talked about them quite a lot; about how to reskin them, how to activate them, how to build on top of them, how to make them look slightly less like a ghoulish Soviet prison with a Ruby Tuesday tacked on. Do we really want to try to define just how many grains of sand are in a "heap"? He said "one of," not the "super-best-most" or "in the top carefully defined and vetted list." It's a bit subjective, but we've wasted plenty of pixels on those garages, and it's exciting that someone might, just maybe, do something with them.

For the record, I don't completely hate them. I like the vertical lines. As garages go, I think they're fine, but they could do with a clean up and some street level activation. And I do think "garage" isn't the optimal use for a site that's so central and so very visible.

This should really help DT as a destination:

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... brand.html

courtland wrote:This should really help DT as a destination:

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... brand.html

Very intriguing. The Landing doesn’t need to completely go back to what it used to be, but it should return to being a hub for entertainment in St. Louis.

St. Louis desperately needs a live music strip like Nashville, Beale Street, etc. It would be awesome to have a mix of live blues, country, and rock music in one place

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

9:17 PM - 1 day ago

courtland wrote:This should really help DT as a destination:

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... brand.html

Very intriguing. The Landing doesn’t need to completely go back to what it used to be, but it should return to being a hub for entertainment in St. Louis.

St. Louis desperately needs a live music strip like Nashville, Beale Street, etc. It would be awesome to have a mix of live blues, country, and rock music in one place

That's what I always envisioned for our Broadway (near Broadway Oyster Bar) [stealing from my own post in the AI thread]:

Vs

stldotage wrote:

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

9:17 PM - 1 day ago

courtland wrote:This should really help DT as a destination:

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... brand.html

Very intriguing. The Landing doesn’t need to completely go back to what it used to be, but it should return to being a hub for entertainment in St. Louis.

St. Louis desperately needs a live music strip like Nashville, Beale Street, etc. It would be awesome to have a mix of live blues, country, and rock music in one place

That's what I always envisioned for our Broadway (near Broadway Oyster Bar) [stealing from my own post in the AI thread]:

BroadwayBluesv3A.png
Vs

BroadwayBluesv3.png

I would absolutely love for that to become a thing. I remember there was talk of it becoming “Music Quarter” but it seems like that momentum has evaporated with the loss of Billy’s on Broadway, Honky Tonk, etc

That strip of Broadway actually had some awesome spots and a good music block but the walk over that from downtown/Busch/Enterprise just is not attractive for enough people. The city should’ve seen this momentum and interest from local people and capitalized on making it cleaner and more pedestrian family but they just ignored it. Enter Good Developments Group to make the nearby area even worse. The city should’ve been drumming up ideas like presented above, creating an attraction.

We have a great music scene in Soulard that has that Memphis/New Orleans feel but we need to connect downtown down to Russell via Broadway to make it more accessible to more people. Taking advantage of the Broadway strip was the way but we’ve definitely lost some momentum. Broadway Oyster and BBs will always be great


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Broadway streetcar?

Biggest problem with STL is how seperated everything is and how things need to be connected.

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dweebe wrote:

STLcommenter wrote: ↑

9:17 PM - 1 day ago

courtland wrote:This should really help DT as a destination:

https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... brand.html

Very intriguing. The Landing doesn’t need to completely go back to what it used to be, but it should return to being a hub for entertainment in St. Louis.

St. Louis desperately needs a live music strip like Nashville, Beale Street, etc. It would be awesome to have a mix of live blues, country, and rock music in one place

I'll fully admit I'm partially "glory daying" by proposing this. But I justify giving it a shot  because the Landing is a contained area and there's also no residential down there. Look at @Citizens4STL who think Washington Ave/most of downtown should have no bars. Not to mention recent/ongoing issues in Soulard and The Grove.

Then maybe in 10 years when the Blues are looking for a new arena, it could go at the north end where the Rams stadium would have gone.

The Landing's main thing is residential

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Seems to me that the Landing is trying to reinvent itself into a residential/entertainment district. That is what I have wanted for that area. It does not have to go back to what it was. Open some music venues, coffee shops, cafes, residential. It has a lot of buildings that do not makes sense to convert to residential. We need this area to be vibrant, if we want to take STL & Arch Tourism to go to another level. We need to funnel the millions of Arch tourists into the the Landing with STL originals such as restaurants, some music clubs, shops & maybe Blues &/or STL riverboat/steamboat museum. Whatever happened to that Steamboat museum that was supposed to move to STL? The area needs to be more than a residential area. It is so isolated & perfect for a tourist destination. It has to differentiate itself from BPV & Wash. Ave. 

DogtownBnR wrote:Seems to me that the Landing is trying to reinvent itself into a residential/entertainment district. That is what I have wanted for that area. It does not have to go back to what it was. Open some music venues, coffee shops, cafes, residential. It has a lot of buildings that do not makes sense to convert to residential. We need this area to be vibrant, if we want to take STL & Arch Tourism to go to another level. We need to funnel the millions of Arch tourists into the the Landing with STL originals such as restaurants, some music clubs, shops & maybe Blues &/or STL riverboat/steamboat museum. Whatever happened to that Steamboat museum that was supposed to move to STL? The area needs to be more than a residential area. It is so isolated & perfect for a tourist destination. It has to differentiate itself from BPV & Wash. Ave. 

I think its isolation is a great reason for why we don't need to funnel tourists through it. Tourists need to be funneled through Kiener Plaze and into downtown, not into a small square completely isolated from downtown. I want STL originals actually *in* downtown.

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StlAlex wrote: ↑

7:05 PM - 1 day ago

DogtownBnR wrote:Seems to me that the Landing is trying to reinvent itself into a residential/entertainment district. That is what I have wanted for that area. It does not have to go back to what it was. Open some music venues, coffee shops, cafes, residential. It has a lot of buildings that do not makes sense to convert to residential. We need this area to be vibrant, if we want to take STL & Arch Tourism to go to another level. We need to funnel the millions of Arch tourists into the the Landing with STL originals such as restaurants, some music clubs, shops & maybe Blues &/or STL riverboat/steamboat museum. Whatever happened to that Steamboat museum that was supposed to move to STL? The area needs to be more than a residential area. It is so isolated & perfect for a tourist destination. It has to differentiate itself from BPV & Wash. Ave. 

I think its isolation is a great reason for why we don't need to funnel tourists through it. Tourists need to be funneled through Kiener Plaze and into downtown, not into a small square completely isolated from downtown. I want STL originals actually *in* downtown.

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The Landing just makes sense, as does Kiener. I'd like to see both. Clearly, the all-in residential neighborhood is not taking off. I know somebody that has been involved in developing the Landing. It has been a VERY slow process. That may be why developers are shifting gears a bit. I think both can coexist in reference to tourism. The River & the Arch just seem to work
"better together" as they say. 

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

and dont leave out the billion dollar + Crunden Martin project

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

7:18 PM - 1 day ago

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

What sets the Landing apart is it's proximity to the Arch, the River, potential boat docks, the unique buildings, the cobblestone, etc. There was not many cooler settings than Sundeckers on a beautiful day on the patio watching the tugs go by. It was unique & very St. Louis. If we do not capitalize on these uniquely St. Louis places, we become just another city. The Landing as a music hub, with residential, restaurants, unique St. Louis shops & other amenities is the way to go. It has to be able to draw in tourists to survive. It has to be safe, feel safe & welcome out of towners. I think the developers know this or they wouldn't be trying to attract a new kind of developer. It looks like the Landing as an all-in residential neighborhood may have run it's course. While I want Kiener & BPV to succeed, I have always had a soft spot for the Landing. We pretty much lost an entire, unique district in our City over the last few decades. I would love to see it make a comeback. The City should also be looking to bring back more riverboats. The McDonald's riverboat (McBarge) does not have to be part of the plan (as much as I'd love to see it) but how about a riverboat offering some other St. Louis favorite(s) like Imos, Ted Drewes or other local favorites... or a local restaurant with staying power opening a McBarge. The ideas are endless as are the possibilities when you have the greatest monument in the USA right there.

jtlq53 wrote: ↑

7:18 PM - 1 day ago

In the abstract they make sense, but I'm not sure I see it. Heck, we saw what just building out BPV did to Wash Ave. Do we have critical mass to support BPV, the Landing as a dining/nightlife spot, Wash Ave's comeback, and whatever we can hopefully get around Keiner in the garages? I'd love to say if we build it they will come, but idk. I know the Landing is there and has a lot of great features, but I'd love to see some of these businesses go into the Keiner garages and towards the Convention Center to connect it to BPV/Busch/etc.

There is over 2.8m people in this region...there is