If you cut all the Downtown STL metrics in half like; total housing units, total workers, total population, total spending, total visitors you get downtown Pittsburgh.
Just want to say that I enjoyed this historical POV. thanks for sharing!steveinphilly wrote: ↑9:05 PM - 1 day agoLet's get one thing straight. Wells Fargo and its predecessor. Wachovia, had nothing to do with the design or construction of their current campus at Jefferson and Market. The first building in that complex, the one just torn down for the hotel, was built and occupied by A. G. Edwards, a locally owned and operated brokerage house that started out in downtown. I believe they started out in the old Victoria Building at 8th and Locust. But in the early 1970's, AGE bought the northwest corner of Jefferson and Market and built the first building which they occupied in 1973. It was completed at the same time as Breakthrough East of Laclede Town was completed. I know because I was the first occupant of apartment 703 of the building at 60 North Ewing. I could look out my window and see the back of AGE, which obstructed my view of the Arch. When you had the original Laclede Town, Breakthrough East, Peacock Alley, Heritage House Apartments, the circular Rodeway Inn, and the Lindbergh Cadillac Building, which was on the southeast corner of Jefferson and Market, you had some nice massing and some modest urban form going on there, AGE's surface parking lot in from of the original building notwithstanding. The northeast section of Mill Creek, (between Jefferson,, 20th, Olive and Market) always had suburban type, low rise buildings in it, but they were occupied by some big name companies at the time, like Smith-Corona-Merrill, Olivetti Underwood and Utilities Insurance.
Unfortunately, the gaping hole in the urban fabric from the demolition of buildings for the North South Distributor created a no-mans land between Downtown West and Mill Creek Valley that precluded any unification of downtown and Mill Creek Valley. I used to walk to and from the old YMCA on Locust and 16th. Downtown West was still pretty alive with Aloe Medical Industries at 19th and Olive, the Century Electric plant on Market, Fruin-Colnon Construction at 17th and Olive, the Sealtest Dairy on 20th street and lots of wholesalers in the huge building at 18th and Olive (now apartments). The silence of the vacancy and emptiness was deafening compared to the activity immediately east and west of this strip of land.
Along with Father Biondi at SLU, AGE was instrumental in getting Laclede Town/Laclede Park/Breakthrough East and Breakthrough West destroyed. But can you blame them? Who would want a festering slum right on your doorstep, which is what Laclede Town had descended into. AGE then acquired the land and when on a major building spree. Then they bought the Sherwood Medical Building (now the police department headquarters) and expanded there. All told, AGE had almost a million square feet at their complex. But my point is is that the entire campus was designed and built by AGE. Wells Fargo had nothing to do with the design of the buildings there. Wachovia bought AGE, then Wells Fargo inherited the campus when it took over the failing Wachovia Bank. St. Louis dodged a bullet when Wells Fargo decided to consolidate its brokerages at the STL site. They could have moved the whole darn shootin' match to Richmond, Virginia.
But the market is built on supply and demand, and right now, there is little to no demand for retail, commercial, office and residential space in and around downtown St. Louis. I just recently moved back to STL after a 50+ years absence, and I really don't want to go downtown now. It's too far gone as far as abandonment and vacancy, and I remember when it was still a fairly active hub of retail, wholesale, light manufacturing and office space. I don't pretend to know all the reasons for the lack of demand here, but taxing already lightly used parking lots in the hopes of somebody MIGHT build something on them is not the way to go.
And as a resident of Pennsylvania for the last 50 years, I can tell you downtown Pittsburgh and downtown St. Louis are in no way comparable. For one thing, downtown Pittsburgh does not have the competition of Chesterfield/Westport/Maryland Heights/Clayton/Brentwood to worry about. Pittsburgh does not have real estate developers whose sole purpose is to destroy downtown Pittsburgh, unlike St. Louis. What Pittsburgh does have in abundant supply is dying old mill towns like McKeesport, Beaver Falls, and Braddock, places that make Wellston look like Beverly Hills.
Downtown Pittsburgh has no sports stadiums (they're all either right outside or across the river) and is about 1/4 the physical size of downtown STL.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
Maybe that's part of the problem. Downtown STL may have more of those things, but it also has far more space, meaning all of those bodies/dollars are spread way too thin, there are numerous abandoned blocks, national retailers want nothing to do with downtown STL leaving vacant storefronts everywhere, the perception is that it's a ghost town, police have much more ground to cover to maintain a consistent presence. You may agree or disagree, but I'd wager 90% of people that have visited both would rank Pittsburgh's downtown as better than downtown St. Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑11:53 AM - 1 day agoIf you cut all the Downtown STL metrics in half like; total housing units, total workers, total population, total spending, total visitors you get downtown Pittsburgh.
Ditto! I'd love to hear your perspective of other parts of the city and how you've seen them change since you last lived here (perhaps in another thread).soulardx wrote: ↑1:33 PM - 1 day agoJust want to say that I enjoyed this historical POV. thanks for sharing!steveinphilly wrote: ↑9:05 PM - 1 day agoLet's get one thing straight. Wells Fargo and its predecessor. Wachovia, had nothing to do with the design or construction of their current campus at Jefferson and Market. The first building in that complex, the one just torn down for the hotel, was built and occupied by A. G. Edwards, a locally owned and operated brokerage house that started out in downtown. I believe they started out in the old Victoria Building at 8th and Locust. But in the early 1970's, AGE bought the northwest corner of Jefferson and Market and built the first building which they occupied in 1973. It was completed at the same time as Breakthrough East of Laclede Town was completed. I know because I was the first occupant of apartment 703 of the building at 60 North Ewing. I could look out my window and see the back of AGE, which obstructed my view of the Arch. When you had the original Laclede Town, Breakthrough East, Peacock Alley, Heritage House Apartments, the circular Rodeway Inn, and the Lindbergh Cadillac Building, which was on the southeast corner of Jefferson and Market, you had some nice massing and some modest urban form going on there, AGE's surface parking lot in from of the original building notwithstanding. The northeast section of Mill Creek, (between Jefferson,, 20th, Olive and Market) always had suburban type, low rise buildings in it, but they were occupied by some big name companies at the time, like Smith-Corona-Merrill, Olivetti Underwood and Utilities Insurance.
Unfortunately, the gaping hole in the urban fabric from the demolition of buildings for the North South Distributor created a no-mans land between Downtown West and Mill Creek Valley that precluded any unification of downtown and Mill Creek Valley. I used to walk to and from the old YMCA on Locust and 16th. Downtown West was still pretty alive with Aloe Medical Industries at 19th and Olive, the Century Electric plant on Market, Fruin-Colnon Construction at 17th and Olive, the Sealtest Dairy on 20th street and lots of wholesalers in the huge building at 18th and Olive (now apartments). The silence of the vacancy and emptiness was deafening compared to the activity immediately east and west of this strip of land.
Along with Father Biondi at SLU, AGE was instrumental in getting Laclede Town/Laclede Park/Breakthrough East and Breakthrough West destroyed. But can you blame them? Who would want a festering slum right on your doorstep, which is what Laclede Town had descended into. AGE then acquired the land and when on a major building spree. Then they bought the Sherwood Medical Building (now the police department headquarters) and expanded there. All told, AGE had almost a million square feet at their complex. But my point is is that the entire campus was designed and built by AGE. Wells Fargo had nothing to do with the design of the buildings there. Wachovia bought AGE, then Wells Fargo inherited the campus when it took over the failing Wachovia Bank. St. Louis dodged a bullet when Wells Fargo decided to consolidate its brokerages at the STL site. They could have moved the whole darn shootin' match to Richmond, Virginia.
But the market is built on supply and demand, and right now, there is little to no demand for retail, commercial, office and residential space in and around downtown St. Louis. I just recently moved back to STL after a 50+ years absence, and I really don't want to go downtown now. It's too far gone as far as abandonment and vacancy, and I remember when it was still a fairly active hub of retail, wholesale, light manufacturing and office space. I don't pretend to know all the reasons for the lack of demand here, but taxing already lightly used parking lots in the hopes of somebody MIGHT build something on them is not the way to go.
And as a resident of Pennsylvania for the last 50 years, I can tell you downtown Pittsburgh and downtown St. Louis are in no way comparable. For one thing, downtown Pittsburgh does not have the competition of Chesterfield/Westport/Maryland Heights/Clayton/Brentwood to worry about. Pittsburgh does not have real estate developers whose sole purpose is to destroy downtown Pittsburgh, unlike St. Louis. What Pittsburgh does have in abundant supply is dying old mill towns like McKeesport, Beaver Falls, and Braddock, places that make Wellston look like Beverly Hills.
agree with all of this.jbacott wrote: ↑3:17 PM - 1 day agoMaybe that's part of the problem. Downtown STL may have more of those things, but it also has far more space, meaning all of those bodies/dollars are spread way too thin, there are numerous abandoned blocks, national retailers want nothing to do with downtown STL leaving vacant storefronts everywhere, the perception is that it's a ghost town, police have much more ground to cover to maintain a consistent presence. You may agree or disagree, but I'd wager 90% of people that have visited both would rank Pittsburgh's downtown as better than downtown St. Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑11:53 AM - 1 day agoIf you cut all the Downtown STL metrics in half like; total housing units, total workers, total population, total spending, total visitors you get downtown Pittsburgh.
In a related note - come on, Wells Fargo, Ameren and Purina aren't really in downtown STL. and, those employer numbers inflate the job # totals in "downtown." Remove those employer numbers. Those people aren't walking anywhere downtown other than to/from their cars. Downtown is bounded by like I-64 to the south, wash ave to the North, the Arch to the east and maybe like 20th to the West (wherever the soccer stadium is).
Of their 9 F500 headquarters, 3 are based downtown and another 3 are based in neighborhoods adjacent to downtown. Additionally, companies like First National Bank, Federated Hermes, Highmark, and EQT, all each have a named tower downtown. BNY Mellon still maintain a decent presence, UPMC has its corporate offices downtown.jbacott wrote:Maybe that's part of the problem. Downtown STL may have more of those things, but it also has far more space, meaning all of those bodies/dollars are spread way too thin, there are numerous abandoned blocks, national retailers want nothing to do with downtown STL leaving vacant storefronts everywhere, the perception is that it's a ghost town, police have much more ground to cover to maintain a consistent presence. You may agree or disagree, but I'd wager 90% of people that have visited both would rank Pittsburgh's downtown as better than downtown St. Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑11:53 AM - 1 day agoIf you cut all the Downtown STL metrics in half like; total housing units, total workers, total population, total spending, total visitors you get downtown Pittsburgh.
FNB just built a new corporate headquarters, 418 ft tall and 550,000 square feet, PNC built a 2-tower expansion to their headquarters in the early-mid 2010s which makes their HQ span 4 high rise-skyscraoers right in the core of downtown. They even built a mixed-use tower that has office, a Fairmont Hotel, and residential.
And this is all in a 0.5 sq mile area.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
This is exactly why I think it would be in the city's best interest to at least try to get as many of these three to move into the core of downtown as possible.soulardx wrote:agree with all of this.jbacott wrote: ↑3:17 PM - 1 day agoMaybe that's part of the problem. Downtown STL may have more of those things, but it also has far more space, meaning all of those bodies/dollars are spread way too thin, there are numerous abandoned blocks, national retailers want nothing to do with downtown STL leaving vacant storefronts everywhere, the perception is that it's a ghost town, police have much more ground to cover to maintain a consistent presence. You may agree or disagree, but I'd wager 90% of people that have visited both would rank Pittsburgh's downtown as better than downtown St. Louis.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑11:53 AM - 1 day agoIf you cut all the Downtown STL metrics in half like; total housing units, total workers, total population, total spending, total visitors you get downtown Pittsburgh.
In a related note - come on, Wells Fargo, Ameren and Purina aren't really in downtown STL. and, those employer numbers inflate the job # totals in "downtown." Remove those employer numbers. Those people aren't walking anywhere downtown other than to/from their cars. Downtown is bounded by like I-64 to the south, wash ave to the North, the Arch to the east and maybe like 20th to the West (wherever the soccer stadium is).
So many companies wanted new headquarters in recent years.....Centene, Commerce Bank, Emerson, World Wide Technology, First Bank, RGA.....all these freaking law firms that run for the brand new space at Forsyth Point or Centene Plaza. Thompson Coburn wants new a office too. But apparently WFA, Ameren, and Purina are more than happy to sit in their sh*tty ancient campuses. Sometimes I wonder if downtown could have retained companies that left for Clayton if there was modern Class A available. I remember Husch Blackwell's given reason for consolidating in Clayton was because there wasn't enough contiguous space for them downtown, and now they're at Forsyth Point.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
- 91
It’s a bad comparison and a great example of how data can be used to say anything. Downtown STL is nowhere near being as vibrant and nice as Downtown PittsburghStlAlex wrote:Downtown Pittsburgh has no sports stadiums (they're all either right outside or across the river) and is about 1/4 the physical size of downtown STL.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
Yes, we know. St. Louis sucks. Everywhere else is better.STLcommenter wrote: ↑4:06 PM - 1 day agoIt’s a bad comparison and a great example of how data can be used to say anything. Downtown STL is nowhere near being as vibrant and nice as Downtown PittsburghStlAlex wrote:Downtown Pittsburgh has no sports stadiums (they're all either right outside or across the river) and is about 1/4 the physical size of downtown STL.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
Thanks for the reminder.
I really think you're on to something here. This is why I think the Millenium development will be so important to test this theory, although Cordish already proved it on a smaller scale with the BPV PwC Pennant Bldg. The owners of Peabody Plaza also proved that older buildings can be attractive if their owners amenitize them and bring them up to Class A standards to be competitive with suburban offices. Even with Peabody moving out, this building is still one of Downtown's healthiest as far as occupancy goes, and new/prospective tenants are still coming. Downtown St. Louis needs to build new Class A office space and start upgrading its languishing buildings (esp. Bank of America Plaza, 1010 Market, and St. Louis Place). Those shiny new buildings in the suburbs won't be shiny and new forever, when the time comes for those corporations to look for new homes, let's give them a reason to come back to Downtown STL.StlAlex wrote: ↑4:05 PM - 1 day agoThis is exactly why I think it would be in the city's best interest to at least try to get as many of these three to move into the core of downtown as possible.soulardx wrote:agree with all of this.jbacott wrote: ↑3:17 PM - 1 day agoMaybe that's part of the problem. Downtown STL may have more of those things, but it also has far more space, meaning all of those bodies/dollars are spread way too thin, there are numerous abandoned blocks, national retailers want nothing to do with downtown STL leaving vacant storefronts everywhere, the perception is that it's a ghost town, police have much more ground to cover to maintain a consistent presence. You may agree or disagree, but I'd wager 90% of people that have visited both would rank Pittsburgh's downtown as better than downtown St. Louis.
In a related note - come on, Wells Fargo, Ameren and Purina aren't really in downtown STL. and, those employer numbers inflate the job # totals in "downtown." Remove those employer numbers. Those people aren't walking anywhere downtown other than to/from their cars. Downtown is bounded by like I-64 to the south, wash ave to the North, the Arch to the east and maybe like 20th to the West (wherever the soccer stadium is).
So many companies wanted new headquarters in recent years.....Centene, Commerce Bank, Emerson, World Wide Technology, First Bank, RGA.....all these freaking law firms that run for the brand new space at Forsyth Point or Centene Plaza. Thompson Coburn wants new a office too. But apparently WFA, Ameren, and Purina are more than happy to sit in their sh*tty ancient campuses. Sometimes I wonder if downtown could have retained companies that left for Clayton if there was modern Class A available. I remember Husch Blackwell's given reason for consolidating in Clayton was because there wasn't enough contiguous space for them downtown, and now they're at Forsyth Point.
Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
As for Wells Fargo, Purina, and Ameren, my thought here would be don't poke the bear...yet. Even though they're not in Downtown proper, they are all still happily located in the city, and I fear that if they are encouraged to move, they'll flee to the suburbs instead of moving further into the core. Their time will come someday, St. Louis just needs to be ready with competitive Downtown office space (and maybe some incentives).